Negative Yang

By: Derek Yu

On: September 24th, 2007

yin space

Everyone remembers Squidi’s attempt at 300 game ideas, right? Sadly cut short to 60 games, but still an admirable effort.

Well, y’all, it looks like we’ve got a little indie internet drama going on, as Nitrome’s latest flash title, Yin Yang, looks a wee bit similar to Squidi’s first game idea, Negative Space. Okay, maybe a little more than a wee bit. More like, if you shaved Ashley and Mary-Kate Olsen’s heads and stripped them naked, would you be able to tell which was which? No, because you’d be throwing up. Zing!

In all seriousness, though, here are the facts:

1. Nitrome is claiming they came up with the idea on their own. They are, unsurprisingly, supported by Jay of Jay is Games, and the Jay disciples.

2. Squidi did, in fact, say that his game ideas could be used without credit.

3. Squidi raised a bit of a stink over it, however, both on his blog, and on the Jay is Games site.

4. One thing he claims is that MTV contacted him about his 300 game ideas long before Yin Yang was released. (MTV hired Nitrome to create Yin Yang.)

5. Jay is now threatening libel for a (rather innocuous, imo) quote from Squidi’s blog.

Hit the extended for my very serious opinions:

1. Nitrome totally got the idea from Squidi. Seriously, look at this other screenshot comparison if you’re still not convinced. (This is an opinion.)

2. But Squidi should just drop the whole darn thing before it blows up in his face like with Penny Arcade. He gave the rights to his idea away willingly. Let others argue for him, if need be. (This is an opinion.)

3. Jay is really, really scary! He seems like he could tear out your throat at the drop of a hat. It’s even scarier because Jay is Games is such a “friendly” place on the surface. Reminds me of church, or Disneyland. (This is an opinion.)

4. Yin Yang is pretty fun, regardless of where the idea came from. (This is an opinion.)

5. DISCUSS. (This is a suggestion!)

  • nullerator

    “Wooty tooty flip-bam-booty!”

  • Joe Joe

    I knew this was going to happen, and this is why I was apposed to squidis project from the beginning.

    If he had posted 300 game ideas, that would be 300 games ideas that were his own, and “only he” could possibly think of, this is probably how things would of gone down. Anyone that made a game related to one of his ideas, would simply be stealing the idea from squidi, thus making them unoriginal hacks. Squidi would make a big fuss about it, saying there’s no way that the person thought of this concept on their own, so they are, in right, stealing squidis work, and he would not get any recognition, boo hoo.

    It also deters people from even making games with those ideas. Who would want to put themselves in that situation? Dealing with someone who’s so desperate to get attention, that he would post up 300 different game ideas, claim that anyone is ok to use them, and then raise a big fuss when someone actually does use them.

    I wish luck to Nitrome and Jay.

  • Punk

    Although I do think that the idea has been ripped (and think its odd that it wouldn’t be admitted to), I also think the whole issue should be dropped. If you make a statement that something can be used without credit, then stick to it. Or next time, think hard before you make such a statement.

  • Blam

    Instead of 300 ideas why not 30-40 ideas WITH A GAME MADE? Because with a game made u gain more reason to whine.

    I had an idea… of flying cars…. gonna ready my lawsuit when anyone does it? No because regardless i had the idea… i didn’t used it (i didn’t make a flying car nor i don’t know how to make one).

  • Joe Joe

    @punk: Apparently squidi isn’t pissed that they “stole his idea” without giving him credit, it’s that they are denying that they “stole his idea”.

    Which makes Squidi look even worse in my eyes. It’s sad to see Squidi make such a fuss, and claim that any future game that deals with his idea must of been stolen from him. He pretty much says this when he’s talking about this Negative Space incident. He’s claiming that since it took him years to hone this idea into what it is today, there’s no possible way anyone else could of thought of the idea, and make a game about it.

    So future game developers, watch out. If you make a game and it looks like one of Squidis, you should either give him credit, just to keep him quiet, or be willing to fight for your own creative rights.

    Hell, Squidi is doing the same thing he claims Nitrome to be doing. Squidi claims that Nitrome should just come out and realize that they couldn’t of possibly thought of the idea before Squidi thought of it. Well Squidi, you should come out and realize that you couldn’t of been the only one to possibly think of this game idea.

    You aren’t some game mechanic god who has the sole ability to come up with these game design blessings, and bestow them upon the rest of us weaker, mortal game developers.

    Get off your high horse and come to grips with the fact that it’s all too possible for multiple people to think alike.

  • http://ptoing.net ptoing

    I do not want to judge here. I think it would be possible to come up with the same idea, but it might also be stolen, chances are even imo.

    Fact is tho that Squidi = Drama. We had drama with him on Pixelation a few times.

    He just seems to enjoy victimising himself so that he can keep on bitching how bad everyone is and how he is exploited.

  • http://JayIsGames.com JayIsGames

    Not my results, but thanks JIG and game developers!

  • mjau

    It’s entirely possible for two different people to come up with the same idea independently. I’ve seen some of my own old ideas in Squidi’s lineup, in fact. If I made a Pellet Quest-like game now, I’d be labeled a thief, right?

    Did Nitrome get the idea from Squidi? Well, things certainly look that way. The chances against them coming up with such a similar design aren’t astronomical, though — once you’ve got the general idea, I can see how the design could just flow off naturally from that. I don’t know, though.

    Enough of this. Ideas are meant to be free.

  • Carlz0r

    Listen… Squidi totally said that people could use the ideas. Without his permission to use the ideas, there would have been a ton of game ideas locked up in copyright with Squidi.

    So, Nitrome was totally right to make the first move, and call Squidi on his word. His word was that people could use the ideas without credit. Having given no further notice of a change of heart, those game ideas were just BEGGING for a clever programmer to come along and bring them to life.

    So wether or not the idea was taken, and wether they deny they took it or not, it’s fair game..

    I can program a little, too… and I’m glad that there aren’t 300 game ideas tied up to someone that’s currently being a whiney little brat. I’m a pretty creative thinker, and I havn’t even looked at all of the 60 entries that he DID make, but heaven forbid I decide to make a game, and it turns out similar to one of his ideas…

  • nullerator

    I’m with Derek on this one. It seems blatantly obvious that Nitrome used Squidis idea without giving him any credit. And that just wasn’t a very nice thing to do.

    No matter what Squidi said about giving him credits before, the decent thing to do would still have been to give him credit. If only included in a “thanks to”-bit at the end of the credits.

    And I’m also surprised at the hostility in that mail from Jay Bibby. It certainly makes him look bad (much worse than anything Squidi ever wrote). And like Derek, I’m surprised by this, because Jay is Games seems to be such an extremely friendly and jovial place. Is it just a facade designed to attract a certain audience?

  • Monsieur LeBoeuf

    You’re missing the point. He /did/ say people could use his ideas without credit. But he got a little miffed when somebody actually did do that, and he moped a little bit on his blog. But that was it!

    It was comments on JIG which drew attention to it, and eventually made Nitrome comment that he didn’t steal it, and THAT was the spark that ignited the nerd-rage.

    This isn’t the first time that he suspected one of his game ideas was used without credit (there was a DS game and some stuff in the Starwars MMOG, but those weren’t blatantly obvious). He grumbled, but kept on going, and started the 300 project.

    He /is/ predisposed to internet drama, but I think what pissed him off here was Nitrome’s “I just pooped it out one night” instead of saying “I used his idea” or even “Hah, what a coincidence … I sure am angry somebody else came up with my idea ahead of time!”

  • haowan

    Jay is totally scary I agree. Like when he came over here yelling about how Derek was sending his goons over to JIG to sabotage the comments thread by posting… disagreements. And it turned out it was one comment from dessgeega who doesn’t even post here anymore that gave him that idea.

    My opinion is that he’s a grade A nutjob. He reminds me of Scientologists. He probably is one.

    Squidi’s going too far, he said his ideas could be used and they were, so he shouldn’t turn around and say “you should give credit” when he explicitly said people didn’t have to; Nitrom is in the wrong for blatantly lying about coming up with the idea and Jay is a naive fool for sticking up for that.

  • DrDerekDoctors

    Tbh, if anything, I’d say that Negative Space owes some of it’s genesis to Adam Tierney’s game idea he posted about on Pixelation years ago, where you had two characters who were the same colour as parts of the background so they disappeared when they were within them. It’s not the same idea, but it’s only a few leaps of logic to go from one to the other.

    Nothing is original. :)

  • haowan

    And that was more worthy of a fucking libel lawsuit than what Squidi wrote. Jesus christ. Jay is the new Jack Thompson!

  • Derek

    It certainly seems like Squidi has carved out a rather negative reputation for himself. Not undeserved, either… I had forgotten about his posts on Pixelation, ptoing. They were pretty obnoxious.

    He just can’t let things drop, ever!

    I _would_ be quite surprised if Nitrome came up with Yin Yang independently, though. The ladders and goal flags are the biggest giveaway, imo. And Nitrome’s games are neat, but none of the other ones are really this clever. Not saying it’s impossible, but I consider it very unlikely.

    Anyway, it’s an interesting topic of discussion (for me, anyway). :)

  • Derek

    @DDD: I was totally going to mention Adam Tierney’s game!

    http://www.adamtierney.com/Pixel/fadeout.gif

    But I think the idea that the two characters are on opposite planes is more crucial to the gameplay of Negative Space than the difference in color. But I did think of that almost immediately.

  • Tim

    I talked to Sean (squidi) once. He’s not interested in indie games apparently, and thinks that they are of poor quality compared to commercial stuff.

  • Gamwich

    No matter who invented what at first, the thing that really disturbs me in this story is jays behaviour.
    As a long-term visitor of JIG I’d never expected that.

    On a side note, am I the only one who doesn’t enjoy Nitromes games? I mean, the graphics, sounds and game idea are usually superb, but the implementation always feels sloppy.

  • nullerator

    “You’re missing the point. He /did/ say people could use his ideas without credit.”

    Yes, I know. But despite this, if you use someone’s very unique idea, you _should_ give some credit. Pretty much no matter what they’ve said about it(*). It’s the only decent thing to do.

    And yes, I do realize that Squidi is being a bit of a drama queen here, and that he was wrong to say that his ideas could be used without giving him credit in the first place. This doesn’t change anything, though. Nitrome still did the wrong thing, and Jay’s message still makes him look like an asshole. IMO.

    (* okay, if they said “If you give me credit, I’ll have you and your family murdered”, it might be okay not to give them credit)

  • Monsieur LeBoeuf

    Oh, I agree. Not giving credit makes one an arse-pickle and a turd-burglar. I meant that people are saying he’s bellyaching because somebody didn’t give him credit.

    He quietly moped about that, but the bellyaching comes from the claim that (the obviously copied) idea was not only independently conceived, but so obvious he knocked it out in an afternoon.

    He’s shown that he’s not above borrowing ideas:
    http://www.nitrome.com/games/spacehopper/index.php

    It’sa me!

  • Derek

    I’m recalling now an incident wherein Jay contacted me about an image that Tim posted on TIGSource way back when. Actually, it’s really quite funny, in the context of this whole situation…

    The long and short of it is that Jay thought that the image Tim posted was ripped from Jayisgames and demanded that we credit him for it. In fact, the two images were just very similar.

    Jay did apologize afterward (very sincerely, I might add), but damn if that isn’t the irony of ironies that he and Squidi are in the same argument now, only Jay is on the other side… wotta woild!

  • Foil

    You can’t crap in your food and complain that your food tastes like crap.

    You can’t say someone can do something then complain when they do. Its that simple.

  • Monsieur LeBoeuf

    My reply got deleted, I think it’s because I used “turd-burglar” as a derogatory term. Turd burgling is a legitmate profession and we need more people in the trades. It might have also been Web 2.0ed out of existence. Either way I apologize.

    > You can’t say someone can do something then complain when they do. Its that simple.

    He isn’t complaining about that! He said it was fine, and he was silently upset on his public blog about it. The uproar is about how after OTHER PEOPLE pointed this out on JIG, that Nitrome said “I came up with it myself, it was obvious because I use an array of pixels”. That’s what got him all upset.

    My post also included a link to Nitrome’s “space hopper” where you run around tiny planets with tiny gravities jumping onto other planets collecting stars. Smacks of the previews of SMB:Galaxy. Just to say that sometimes he borrows. And that’s okay.

  • nullerator

    Foil: If you make something based on someone else’s idea, you should give them credit. It’s that simple.

  • Foil

    He said they could use the idea without credit (if they came up with it on their own or not really isn’t an issue) then gets upset when they seemingly do.

    I don’t see the issue here and I think its all pretty stupid. Why can’t games be about fun instead of drama?

  • Er

    But… you’re just getting involved in the drama. Why not go play some games instead? :)

  • Monsieur LeBoeuf

    > Why not go play some games instead? :)

    But not Facade he’ll hate that!

  • cactus

    It seems obvious that idea was nicked. The graphics are very similar. I haven’t seen Squidi’s idea used before in other games, so why would it suddenly pop up twice in such a short period of time? Plus the MTV connection just makes it seem completely obvious.

    Pretty much every developer I talk to on the web knows about the 300 project. I even considered stealing a bit from it at one point, and had no understanding that Squidi was expecting credit. So I’m glad I didn’t.

    It seems really harsh that Squidi gets his idea stolen and then someone threatens him with a lawsuit. And for no real good reason to boot.

    Still, looks like he dug his own grave on this one. Both in releasing the game concept publically, and for not being a good sport about stuff in the past.

  • http://www.tscreative.net BMcC

    Oh man, this story is just so _juicy._

    To quote the late, great Fergie:

    > No no no no drama

  • PHeMoX

    *So future game developers, watch out. If you make a game and it looks like one of Squidis, you should either give him credit, just to keep him quiet, or be willing to fight for your own creative rights.*

    Ow come on… isn’t is clear that this was totally ripped off? It’s not about his ideas, heck he’d give them away for free.. it’s about how people ‘used’ his idea.

    I wouldn’t be happy about it one bit if someone used my idea like this aka total rip-off and stíll deny.

  • Madgarden

    Ideas are not covered by copyright, but it is nice to receive some credit every now and then, isn’t it?

    Come on world, give a guy some credit!

  • Stij

    Hmm. I gotta agree with Haowan on this one.

    Squidi’s ideas were public domain from the start, so he has no right to complain about someone stealing them. Heck, a lot of his “original” game ideas have been done in some form before.

    That doesn’t excuse Jay’s actions, though. Seriously, I have no respect for that guy anymore.

  • DrDerekDoctors

    @Derek: You’re totally just saying that and stealing my idea of mentioning Adam’s game. ;)

    I agree that the two of them don’t play similarly at all, though. But I can see one being only a few neural-hops away from the other.

  • fish

    threatening libel is for pansies.

    i was threatened with libel once.
    because is aid something less than nice about someone on a blog. oh my.

    had to spend hours trying to decipher the right mess that are libel laws in canada.

    libel is a joke.

    in the end, i told the threatener and her “lawyer” to fuck off hard because i was certain they didnt have a case.
    it takes somekind of amazing evidence that someone’s reputation was severely damaged by someone else’s comments to win a case like that.

    he cant sue them for stealing the idea because he made them public, so he’s threatening with the first thing he came up with.

    i find it pathetic.

    if i started suing everybody who called me names, that’s all id be doing.

    grow a pair.

  • Tim

    And until today I still have no idea which image Derek and Jay is referring to.

  • Gurrah

    @fish: I think you’ve got some things mixed up here m8. Squidi is being threatened with a lawsuit for saying something Jay didn’t like, which, by the way Jay, happens – live with it. He never had any intentions to sue Nitrome for using the idea, at all!

    @nullerator: I was about to write exactly the same thing. Even if Squidi didn’t want credit, it’s just something you do, especially if you are using the idea commercially. Heck, a mail to Squidi informing him about using his idea would probably have been enough – but maybe I am just too much of a humanitarian and in the businessworld it just works different.

  • larsiusprime

    Here’s the thing –

    I’ve worked with Jay a lot in the past. Jay’s thing is that he’s very loyal to the people who post games on his site, and he has always done his best to be above and beyond board with people,

    He is very good to the indie gamer – he sponsors a lot of contests with much more generous prize packages than a lot of other sites can give, mostly because he works hard to get sponsors, and encourages the community to donate to the people who make games.

    Unlike some other sites, he doesn’t ask for your IP and insists that anything you make is your own property.

    Squidi can make anyone look like a jackass. Maybe Jay got a little mad, but I think it’s because Jay is very trusting, and regardless of whatever Nitrome did, he’s willing to believe them above some guy known for his internet drama, and is willing to put his OWN REPUTATION on the line to defend the indie gamer.

    Notice Squidi, who never even bothered to turn Negative Space into a game, is the one who picked a fight with him. Jay supports the Indie Gamer, not the Indie Whiner.

  • Anony Mous

    It’s painfully obvious that this is Sean Howard’s idea. He deserves credit, but MTV would never let Nitrome go out in the open and admit it. Even if Sean doesn’t mean to take legal action, a company isn’t going to uneccesarily implicate themselves even the tinest bit.

  • http://internetography.freeforums.org Zeno

    Yeah, I’m totally with Jay on this one. Squidi’s just being a little dramabitch. Now, having said that, I think that Nitrome should’ve given props where props are due, but not after Squidi’s little bitchfit.

  • OrR

    Why are they behaving like assholes and pretend it was their idea when it’s so obvious where they stole it? I simply don’t get it, especially since the idea was free to take anyway.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ-QSJmEgHU Um

    @larsiusprime: Gamers are people who play games. Not make them. The people that make them are called Developers.

    You sound like someone who does PR for Westwood College.

  • larsiusprime

    Regardless of whatever is going on with Nitrome (they might very well have just ripped the idea off), I think their reaction and Jay’s reaction need to be taken as two separate things.

    The game ideas are incredibly similar; but that doesn’t mean they ripped it off necessarily. As big as the internet is, believe it or not, it is more than possible not to have seen something with 70 zillion hits.

    Even if you’re famous on the internet, it’s more than possible for 99% of the world and a large portion of the rest of the internet to not know a dang thing.

    Nitrome must be given the benefit of the doubt; for instance: Even if MTV totally ripped off the idea, Nitrome might never have actually seen Squidi’s blog post, MTV just handed them a game idea and said, “Here, make this.”

    It is entirely plausible; it’s not fair to judge people based on what *might* be the truth. There’s plenty of people who might be at fault here.

    And at the end of the day, nothing is new under the sun. If I had taken one of Squidi’s ideas, I’d have definitely credited him. But how many times have you seen something, forgotten about it, or heard about the idea through a third party, and thought you came up with it originally? And so if some guy out of left field then accuses you of being a thief because it was *his* idea, when you heard about it first from your uncle, wouldn’t you be indignant?

  • larsiusprime

    @ Um:

    Yeah, you’re right. You’ve got a point there. Sorry bout that.

  • PHeMoX

    I think there isn’t really a discussion except from the part that a. Nitrome said it was their work and b. fact number 4. is probably bothering Squidi …

    By the way I think it’s appropriate to quote what Squidi actually said about this:

    *I said on my webpage that I wanted whatever credit the creators of the derivative works deemed necessary. So, the thing that really gets me is that I guess they didn’t think ANY credit was necessary. I don’t really know how to take that, except as a slap in the face.*

    That sums it up nicely. I guess the slap in the face became even bigger when Nitrome said it was his idea….

  • larsiusprime

    I think I can see this from both sides now…. This probably goes without saying, but if there hadn’t been accusations of theft and lying from the get-go, I don’t think this would have escalated.

  • Crab

    what is the point of coming up with game ideas and not getting them developed? if it really is such a painfully obvious ripoff then this is good for everyone; squidi gets his idea realized and nitrome turns out a good game

  • Dan MacDonald

    Remember, everyone draws from different sources when they make a game, a clone is defined by how much a developer takes from a single source. And lets face it, the clone thing has been apart of the casual games space since it’s inception, bejewled clones anyone? It’s par for the course for the casual games space to defend clones to the death, if they don’t they have to admit that only 3% of the companies in their industry are capable of creating an original game and the other 97% just rip those off.

    So let’s not get too surprised when a casual game developer denies all external influence, claims they created a game in a vaccume, and that they are totally original game developer. It’s all BS, it’s the very core BS that makes it possible for the casual games industry to exist en masse. It’s the same BS that makes the majority of casual game developers walk around thinking their the hot shit future of gaming, when in reality all their doing is hireing an artist and copying a game.

  • Melly

    Derek, you made a mistake. It is spelled lulz, not lolz. :P

    Encyclopedia Dramatica, here we go!

  • Joe Joe

    As “obvious” as it may be, there is no true way to know if the idea was stolen or not. Like I said before, I was always against Squidis 300 idea because of what is going on right now.

    Regardless of whether or not he wants credit for a game that uses his idea, he’s going to let everyone know where the idea came from, just as he’s doing now.

    I don’t believe that Nitrome stole the idea, but I don’t necessarily believe that he didn’t steal it either. I can’t make that claim because we just don’t know. Regardless of that fact, the way Squidi is acting is just childish. He’s claiming that there’s no way in hell that Nitrome could of thought of the idea on his own. As if to say he (Squidi) was the only person capable of coming up with such a “unique” game idea.

    As for the obvious like-ness between the two, I’d like someone to name me various platformers that use ladders, and various platformers that don’t use ladders. There are for more games with ladders in it, because they are a simple mechanic to be used in platforming games. The same thing goes with the flag, all platforming games need you to reach a goal at the end of the level. When I think of goal, I either think of a flag, or a hockey goal, or something like that. If Nitrome really did steal this idea, why would he purposefully make it so blatant that he stole it by making the goal a flag, and using the “unique” game play mechanic of ladders.

    I’m sure most of use plagiarized now and then in school. How many of you just copy and pasted information without changing any of it? Not many, because you wouldn’t want to get caught. It goes against logic to think that Nitrome would steal this game idea completely, and only change the way the objects in the game look.

    Regardless, as I said earlier, no matter how obvious it seems, no one can know for sure if the idea was stolen or not. It’s Squidi’s, and apparently Jay’s behavior that is the biggest part of this Interdrama.

  • Squidi

    I guess I should explain myself better.

    The extent of my involvement with this thing started (and ended as far as I was concerned) with a simple, snarky comment in the JIG’s entry for Yin Yang. I’ve demanded no credit, nor am I claiming that they need to even give it – though I think it is the morally right thing to do. But just because I think they are being selfish does not mean I’m going to demand that they take down the game or give me money or anything. It’s their game completely.

    However, after they posted their comment about how they allegedly came up with the idea on their own, Jay emailed me (not the other way around) for my comments on the subject – saying that he really did care about proper attribution for the idea (and oh yeah, he totally believes Nitrome because they said they invented it). THAT is what I took offense to.

    You can’t have it both ways. Either you care about attribution or you take people at their word. There is more than enough evidence to call their claims into suspicion and require more inquiry, but Jay refused to even consider that possibility – all while telling me that he was the good guy and hoping that attribution went to the right person (as long as the right person was Nitrome apparently). THAT is offensive to me.

    And then I got an email from some other guy from the JIG website that suggested that perhaps Nitrome created the idea, as I did, because of a social unconsciousness – which is absurd. Or people suggesting that they could come up with the idea so quickly a mere five months after I posted the idea because Pluto was discovered by multiple people.

    I don’t care about Nitrome or Yin Yang, but the excuses people are creating on their behalf are illogical and frankly, stupid. This whole thing about my inability to understand or accept that people would rather believe in social subconscious ideas than deal with the very obvious conclusion that jumps right out at them.

    I don’t demand credit. I do want it though. Who wouldn’t? But this isn’t about Nitrome’s game. This is about how little people appreciate and respect bare naked creativity. How cheap and obvious they think it is. Every cheap little excuse people invent for why Nitrome didn’t use my idea (like saying it was an idea used before… in CHESS) just belittles anybody who has ever had a good idea, and insults every creator who has ever wanted to be original. But, for some reason, for people to actually see that insult, they need clear proof that Nitrome took the idea from my website. That’s largely beside the point, but if it helps me make my point better, then I’ve got to pay lip service to it.