Cinders

By: Lorne Whiting

On: May 12th, 2011

Cinders
Cinders is an upcoming visual novel, set apart from the rest of the genre by… not being anime-inspired, and having gorgeous art production. It’s being developed by the newly formed MoaCube, which is pretty much just a legitimized version of the ArcMagi development team– albeit with the addition of artist and casual games industry veteran Gracjana “Vinegar” Zielinska. The game itself is a retelling of the Cinderella fairytale, travelling the ever popular path of un-Disneyifying classic stories (no word yet on whether there will be third-person shooter sequences). It’s set to be released some time this summer.

The Moacube website also contains development updates on ArcMagi, and has a new site for AM’s predecessor, Magi.

  • Banana

    first comment

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Klrtcnwqkle-Wehwjswl/1052050690 Klrtcnwqkle Wehwjswl

    Actually, pick a random commecrial visual novel on vndb.org and I can guarantee you it will look better that this 9 times out of 10.

    I'm not saying this game looks horrible, but “gorgeous art production” is a bit of an overstatement.

  • ANtY

    Website with anime porn visual novels, not really better.

  • Xdiesp

    You sure that's not anime, son? I've seen plenty like that.

  • Jake Permartz

    Looking great so far :) Loved Phantasmat with Vinegar's art and I'm really curious about how this will finally turn out :)

  • Sayin

    If by looking better you mean having gravity defying breasts taking up half of the screen then I think I've found many on that website you linked.

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/EJUMVRTBBP5JEJ2JOTDNZCQQ5E Sum One

    That screenshot reminds me of the similar scene in LOOM.

  • Fuhgs

    Daaamn I am diggin' this style

  • http://profiles.google.com/chrispwolf Christopher Wolf

    test

    format

  • 101

    A game can have gravity defying breasts tasking up half of the screen and still look better than this. Just saying.

  • 101

    Looks like outsorced-to-Russia hidden object game actually, not exactly what I'd call “
    gorgeous art production”.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Klrtcnwqkle-Wehwjswl/1052050690 Klrtcnwqkle Wehwjswl

    First of all, how is that relevant to art production?
    Second of all, they're not necessarily porn. It's a big genre with a lot of variety in themes, content and even game mechanics. 

    I don't blame you for this uneducated opinion though, it's hard to expect something else when visual novels are hardly represented in English-speaking world.

  • Lorne Whiting

    Actually, I think he was judging by the website and not just preconceptions. Clicking on the random visual novel button, I got 9 games with sexual content, 3 without, and 2 with visual styles that weren't basic, anime visual novel style things. I'd say it's more of a self-perpetuating stereotype, it's built up an audience of people who like porn so people keep making pornographic visual novels?

    On the topic of cinders, though, I really don't see why people do not see it as atleast good art production, it's much more polished than most (read: Not all) anime vns.

  • Lorne Whiting

    I'd say it's more western, padre. Characters have noses, is the tip-off, as I see it.

  • Seraph

    Love the art style!  The website is lovely too, you can really tell when people put a lot of thought and care into making their stuff.  Bookmarked and on my watchlist.

  • dakorma

    An honest critique, detailed, too OVERLY detailed. It looks almost baroque, and baroque died out for a reason. You've got the fuzz over a lot of it, which is merely faking the detail of those portions. Onto the window, look at it, it looks staggering and jarring, in an almost completely different style than the other portions, and lacking the “true grit technology” Finally, you've got the main character, who looks like she was traced over from a 3d program. You know, looking at it more, almost the entire scene looks like that. That would explain this last point the light sources… Look at them, the window doesn't appear to be letting like in from outside the window but from inside it just slightly. Not only that, but where exactly is the sun, find it, well it could be noon or it could be 6 in the morning in the desert, because the light source from the window appears to be coming from both of those angles, kind of like if the just put a sun just inside the window there in maya and expected it to work out fine.

    I'm gonna stop now before I suffer an aneurism at the people calling this good art. At least most japanese companies have the virtue to make their games look like the characters weren't done in 3ds max/maya/modo/zbrush/30 other 4d modeling platforms I could mention but would drag on to long.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Klrtcnwqkle-Wehwjswl/1052050690 Klrtcnwqkle Wehwjswl

    If he looked at the statistics he'd see that out of 6975 novels only 3287 have any sort of sexual content, which is less than half.

  • anthonyflack

    Visual novels: “not necessarily porn”

  • alastair_jack

    This looks significantly better than Japanese art.

  • vinegaria

    @dakorma

     It sounds less like an honest critique, more like this doesn't fit your
    personal taste. Judging by what you wrote you'd much prefer a heavily
    stylised, more clean art style. Which is also great, just not something
    we aim for in this case.

    Your baroque “argument” is not only pointless (I hardly see any
    resemblance) but also silly. Bear with me, I'm a historian of art (MA),
    and baroque was one of my specialities. To call it that it “died out for
    a reason” is simply untrue. Also, as most people, you're probably
    confusing baroque with rococo or some local variations (let's say
    ornamental, central spanish baroque).

    Baroque lasted from late XVIth century (let's say Caravaggio around
    1590s in Italy, but it was really started by Il Gesu church, a model
    baroque building, built in 1560-80's) up to whole XVIIIth century (along
    with classicism), even the beginning of XIXth in some parts of Europe.
    Therefore saying that it “died out for a reason”, when talking about a
    style that lasted longer than reneissance and the basics of which are
    still used even today (dividing the space in architecture), is just
    silly. Baroque died for real when classicism and secession died too –
    with modern art.

    Baroque, in short, is a logical structure carefylly thought out,
    monumental, theatrical, playing with light, using contrasts, rich in
    detail but NEVER to the point that the whole structure is lost in
    ornament (that's rococo). So all in all – I should thank you for the
    compliment :)

    But I digress. As for the whole 3D thing – it seems like you just try to
    sound smart, without having actual style sense. I'm pretty good at
    telling what was based on a 3D render and what was not. That's my job
    experience. If you say, looking at my pieces, that you see 3D – well,
    clearly you have not too much experience on that field.

    This screenshot is 100% hand painted, and I guess I should thank for the
    compliment, as I myself can see some perspective lapses, which wouldn't
    be possible on a 3D render. I also have no idea how you got the idea
    that this character looks like a render. By comparing it to japanese
    companies – do you mean she isn't cell-shaded, has no huge breasts and
    is more realistic yet still cartoony? If yes, than I agree.

    As for the lights – I dare say it's because you see them static here,
    not animated as they are in game, but this is the only argument of yours
    that makes some sense.

    Other than that it seems to me this is a game that just doesn't suit
    your personal style, but you decided to write a spiteful, yet a bit
    pointless comment, just to make someone feel sorry. Well, you did,
    congratulations. Apparently my art is even more hideous than random,
    generic japanese VNs, which actually do have poorly traced renders and
    photos as backgrounds. Not that you would see it, of course.

  • esp

    Yeah, compared to this Japanese art is shit!

  • Rostiger

    @vinegaria Please don't feel sorry, I think your art style is wonderful. I know it's hard to ignore the trolls, but it would be a shame it you let it get you down.

    Also to be perfectly honest I have only played very few VNs so far and never finished any of them, but the screenshots would definitely lure me into trying this one, even if I'm not too much into Cinderella.

  • dakorma

    I will admit I did mean Rococo, and it was only a vague one off comparison, meant to convey the fact that there is detail there that doesn't need to be there. You've met 2 of my claims, that it's 3d paint over, which I still think it is, simply because of how the main character is shaded. It's very undetailed, compared to the rest of the scene, I think the lights at  very least are photoshoped in. Simply because of where the source is on the window, and how the candles seem to shine. But if you say it's hand painted, I shall accept it at face value.

    However, you haven't addressed the accusation of the dust filter thing, if you look at the wall that takes up the left side of the screen, it honestly looks like you used a photoshop filter.

    Nor have you addressed the light sources. Which still annoy me as I look at the picture. As an addenda to the previous post, why does the fire appear to be an eldrich flame that casts no light? I mean the bloody candles cast enough light to upset the balance of light, why doesn't the fire?

    As for generic Japanese VN, here's a good example of what the style can do with some modifications, http://www.littlewitch.jp/home… see what I mean about detail, in VNs you need to draw the eyes to the characters, not the backgrounds. The backgrounds painted like they are leads the eye to wander, and makes the screen seem cluttered. Note the actual description of the genre, visual novel, both aspects should be there, but it should be about the text and choices. Not about the shiny's. While well done art is perfectly good, it should never detract from the story. I'm interested to see how the final product looks.

    Also, yes, I know that VN I just posted an image from has porn in it, I think haven't gotten that far, I got it from a hentai site on a curiosity after a friend recommended it, I was pleasantly surprised. It is quite enjoyable.

    Also, the character is in fact cell shaded, as you can see the outline quite clearly. She just if more detailed than most cell shaded things.

    I'm gonna go on, this is taking too much time.

  • Jay

    Mmmm I like it

  • vinegaria

    @dakorma:disqus
     So basically you're telling me I overpainted a render that doesn't exist? Wow. Here, I attached you the original sketch, work in progress shot and the current asset. 3D render? Now, really. As I said – it is very clear you have no idea what you're talking about, it just doesn't seem like you have visual experience to judge those things, but still you will, no matter if it makes you look, well, stupid.

    Now to address the rest of your fun comments:
    1. The lights might seem “photoshopped” because they are animated in game. Why is it a bad thing, though? I paint all graphics in photoshop after all (mostly on pencil sketches). The key word is “paint” not “render”. But even if I painted on my own renders, so what? It can still have painterly feeling, and many other artists do it with great effects.

    2. This screenshot is a work in progress, so it does indeed lack the fireplace light, which is present in the finished version. Also the fire is not painted, it's an animated effect.

    3. “The accusation of a dust filter thing” – haha? Ha? I didn't say anything about that, because it's on purpose – there's a texture that covers all scenes to make them look more like pages taken from an old fairytale. You know, those kinds that featured fully detailed art? The kind we aim for?

    4. In addition to the latter and your VN style comment – isn't it obvious that we don't aim for typical VN style, meaning cell shaded characters and “fuzzy”, unreadable backgrounds? You say it like it's a bad thing, while for us it's a good thing. We don't try to make a japanese-styled VN, we're making a fairytale retold, visual novel with a style that takes more from the XIXth/early XXth century illustration than anything else. But it seems for you it sucks, because it doesn't look like a generic VN. Oh, well.

    So, basically, if you didn't get it – we're not trying to make a generic VN with cell-shaded manga graphics and blurred backgrounds, but an interactive story with fully detailed illustrations.

    And also – “I'm gonna go on, this is taking too much time.” – what a fun attitude. You make a rude comment (not because it's an honest critique, which it isn't, but because it just shows the spiteful attitude) and when I replied, silly me, you're simply saying it's not worth your time.

    Eh, Internet kids those days..

  • vinegaria

    @Rostiger Thank you very much! Yeah, I know it's stupid, but I really spend a lot of time on those, and getting a 'critique' like “it sucks, 'cause it's not my style, and I'm sure it's faked” really gets on my nerves.

    Still I think Cinders might interest you not because it's a Cinderella fairytale (which has been done to death, of course), but because you can do there everything that wouldn't normally happen (show some attitude, ignore the prince and find money to start your own business for example). We hope replayability and different scenarios will be fun :)

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NVA7D6X67A56Q2HDBN2JRKQ5PA Dead

    I'm sure he was just trying to give his expert opinion. You see, the
    internet makes everyone an expert on anything. EVERYONE knows exactly
    what they are talking about and will be tremendously offended and
    defensive if you suggest otherwise. Trying to educate idiots or set
    fools straight is a hopeless task. Especially if the idiots and fools in
    question regard themselves as unique and witty intellectuals with
    interesting opinions, far better than the majority of other people. And
    what's worse, they think other people want to listen or care about what
    they have to say. Giving them any kind of attention whatsoever will
    simply reinforce their view that they are one of a kind.

    Of course, if he was just trolling you for amusement and dosen't
    actually believe anything he's saying then that's a different story. In
    that case he is most likely overcompensating for something absent from
    his life (for example a lack of friends, obesity or sexual frustration)
    by writing something that is guaranteed to get a response and therefore
    make them feel a little less isolated and empty inside.  People like
    this are truly pitiable, but the best you can do is ignore them rather
    than boost their oversized ego by giving them attention. It's best just
    to be sympathetic and hope that they find another way other than
    trolling to fill the gap in their lives.

  • dakorma

    It's not really worth my time, it's finals week, I've got projects due tomorrow.

    As far as the artistry, I can see that I've been proven wrong, it's nice that you clarified that this was a work in progress shot. Thank you for taking the time out to correct me, it helps vastly.

    As for the style, there really is no, one, style that is a fairy tale style, you can go from Warwick http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi… to Bilbin and see the vast differences, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi… not to mention someone like Dore, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi… who is completely different. Or how about someone like Bauer, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi… Or someone like Mucha, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi… who does  similar style to what you are attempting.

    I agree you are making a different styled visual novel I just think you should take more cues from the people who have been doing it for 20 years. The detailed backgrounds in particular distract from the characters on screen. And from the text, I spent about 20 second staring at the madam ghede image before I even noticed the text. This would be fine if you were going for a visual story, like an adventure game. But a visual novel, as I said should focus on the text and the characters.

    As to the dust filter, the lines and details you see in things like the Warwick image come from the fact that it's on canvas, not any particular stylistic choice by the artist.

    Now that that 10 minute segment is done, I have 4 more pages to write.

  • Xdiesp

    On second thought, it's not the developers' fault that the discussion had immediately started on the wrong foot. I'd rather address the reviewer's inferiority complex of absolutely having to snipe at anime like it was a menace to America or something. And it's undeniable that this game has anime influences, but we can only love it more for this.

  • Sayin

    True. They don't though.

    And hey, whilst I love a huge rack that I can bury my face in, I wouldn't particularly say that their glaringly obvious use lends terribly well to what could be considered wonderful art production.

  • vinegaria

    I don't really get why you're posting me links to various artists of the times I already said I'm getting most my inspiration from. I know them, thank you very much. I also clearly said we aim for an old fairytale book look, I didn't say we aim for somebody's specific style. The best thing about illustration of those times was how varied it was.

    If you'd read my reply carefully, you'd see I didn't state anywhere there is one specific style we follow. On the contrary – you're the one somewhat claiming there are some magic guidelines we should follow. The ones you think are good. Do you have such a big experience in VN field? I rather doubt it.

    As for the text's clarity – in many VN's you have text on half-transparent background which is hardly readable. I dare say ours is one of the most readable there could be (light on dark, no patterns, regular serif font). As for detailed backgrounds – many VNs have even more detailed ones (especially the typical 'classroom'), which are pure renders by the way. We aim for every background to look like an old illustration. Not a 20mins blurry placeholder.

    Yet again you're trying to give advice on how to make a cliche VN game (blurred backgrounds with lack of better art, cartoony, overstylised charas). Yet again I'm replying that's not our goal to make a typical game in this genre.

    Good luck with your finals.

  • Mary

    I like how some people still think anime and manga are an actual art style and not just a functional and heavily stylized drawing technique to help animators and studios save time and money. I also like how some people think anime and manga are the only Japanese art style and ignore all their other techniques, because all they know about Japan is what they see in their cartoons and videogames. It's like thinking flash cartoons are the height of western art. 

    tl;dr, sure is kiddies getting mad that they can't masturbate to this. I really like the art style in this game by the way.

  • do.ob

    The guy didn't bash anime, he just said that Cinders differs in art style from most VNs. Oversensitive?

  • News

    Typical weeaboo apologetic. Anyone who doesn't worship Japanese depravity has simply failed to expose themselves to enough of it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Klrtcnwqkle-Wehwjswl/1052050690 Klrtcnwqkle Wehwjswl

    Maybe it's not about his “personal style” and you just suck at your job?

  • rinkuhero

    this is the first time i've ever seen anyone other than myself argue with trolls of their game :)

    it's actually good to see others do it too, too often they're just left to talk badly of a game without getting any replies from the devs

  • rinkuhero

    i think there's good japanese art and bad japanese art, like any other country

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Klrtcnwqkle-Wehwjswl/1052050690 Klrtcnwqkle Wehwjswl

    It's true, I wouldn't masturbate to women that look like men.

  • anthonyflack

    They must have rather girly-looking men where you come from.

  • Kinetic

    I'm not a visual artist but judging from that screenshot, i felt the character lacked feeling and expression – and by expression i'm not referring to her face only, i'm saying her body pose too, she looks too much like a doll. You are telling a story though music, art and words, not just the words… So this is important. The background is gorgeous, and i think you got pretty darn spot on in the old illustration feeling, but as our troll guy friend said, maybe should have a little more contrast with the character to let it stand out more, that doesn't mean you have to wash the details… maybe is just a matter of color tweaking.Just my impressions.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Klrtcnwqkle-Wehwjswl/1052050690 Klrtcnwqkle Wehwjswl

    Any man would look girly compared to those poorly-drawn trannies.

  • Mary

    I totally agree man, all animes look like poorly drawn trannies, hell you can hardly tell if the men are actually men and not women, it's so confusing! Why would anyone get off to that?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Klrtcnwqkle-Wehwjswl/1052050690 Klrtcnwqkle Wehwjswl

    HAHAHA, I TOO ENJOY HAM-HANDED SARCASM!

    More importannly though, are any of you ignorant fuckers actually familiar with the genre or am I wasting my time talking to people not knowing what they're talking about?

    Because so far the only critique of art production in visual novels can be summed in “their breasts are too big”, which has nothing to do with anything.

  • anthonyflack

    I would hate for you to feel like your trolling was a waste of time. No, actually we are all captivated by your insightful critiquing.

    “pick a random commecrial visual novel on vndb.org and I can guarantee you it will look better that this 9 times out of 10.” was very instructive, but “Maybe it's not about his “personal style” and you just suck at your job?” really brought some much-needed clarity to the discussion and was definitely not a waste of time.

    I HOPE YOU FOUND THIS POST ENJOYABLE TOO!

  • DeafEars

    There's plenty of anime where the characters are drawn with huge noses. And manga is even more diverse when it comes to art style – of course this is true mainly due to the sheer amount. There is indeed a great deal of the small nose and big eye kind of style, but this is by no means the exception. Don't let pokemon, dragonball Z and video game art inspired by shounen or shoujo (boy and girl) manga fool you into thinking that everything that comes from Japan (and South Korea for that matter) is in this style. The things that get imported and popularized in the West are really just the tip of the ice berg.

    I can't stress this enough: ANIME AND MANGA ARE A MEDIUM NOT A GENRE. And for that matter they are merely the Japanese words for “comic” and “animation”. Batman and Family Guy are examples of manga and anime.

    Yes the words anime and manga are often used to point out the big eyes and tiny nose style as well as the Japanese cultural tropes (themes, character types etc) that often get imported along with whatever shounen anime/video game getting a Western release. But this clouds over any Japanese art style that does not conform to this style – of which there are many. Ironically enough, when an anime that dosen't conform to the big eye/tiny nose art style gets a release in the fansub scene, it often gets dismissed as “ugly” by many of the Western fans, regardless of quality?

    Although it might be tempting to pin me down as a “weeaboo” purely because I am defending this perspective, I am a big fan of ALL animation and comics, regardless of country.  Therefore it is frustrating when someone decides to dimiss everything from a specific country as conforming to a certain genre and style.
    Comics/Manga can be drawn in any style under the sun.

    tl;dr The words anime and manga lead people to assume that everything from Japan conforms to the shounen/shoujo big eyes/tiny nose style. In doing so it dismisses the vast amount of material that do not and undermines the chances of that material getting any exposure outside Japan. Also weeaboos are damaging to anime, manga and their perception.

  • failrate

    I dream of the day that someone even bothers to troll me.  That will be the day I finally made is 8D

  • failrate

    *it

  • Zecks

    The animes consist of some good stuff and an absolutely incomprehensible amount of shit just like everything else.  -Andrew Hussie (something to that effect)

    It's just that the “animes” are the only thing where dumbasses disregard this fact.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Klrtcnwqkle-Wehwjswl/1052050690 Klrtcnwqkle Wehwjswl

    Trolling? Am I missing something or the burden of proof is on the original posting with his statement about poor art production in visual novels, a medium he (as it turned out in the earlier comments) knows next to nothing about?

  • Zecks

    Hey krnrmdsrlntly wasfsfhjlj I know how you feel. I advise you stop trying to convince these people anything though because believe me, it's fucking impossible.