To Jim Sterling, Who Hates Art Games

This is pointless! People who like art games ain’t gonna stop liking them just because some fatso decided to make a public matter out of his idiocy, nor is there anything anyone can say that will make people set on hating art games suddenly appreciate them.

“My problem is that TIGSource is supposed to be the mecca for good independent games. It’s coming off as if TIGSource is the place for art games, period. […] If a game does not fit within this “click” [sic] that this “industry” wants, it wont get 1 minute of attention. Its become ridiculous and it often feels like I am back in High School, I must do some pixel junk so I can get the attention I deserve!”

which is kind of ironic because you’re saying that games which are majorities elsewhere (and which get covered in places like kotaku and joystiq) are underrepresnted in tigsource. but isn’t that the entire point of tigsource? to cover games that mainstream games journalists don’t? who really cares if we don’t review, say, starcraft 2? that’s not the site’s purpose. the purpose is to review offbeat and strange games.

it seems incredibly counter-intuitive to come to a site that covers strange games because they aren’t covered elsewhere, and complain that it doesn’t cover the types of games everyone else covers. that’s sort of like going into a black school in the south during segregation and complaining that they don’t allow enough whites in.

TIGS covers plenty games that aren’t art games, and has a forum where people post about tons of things the main website doesn’t discuss, giving opportunity to more people to get some exposure within the same community. Derek’s comment doesn’t in any way imply they only post about art games, and TIGS certainly covers tons of games that aren’t art games, and even has the TIGDB. At the end of the day, they aren’t paid to keep this website. If you think you can do a better indie games site that has better coverage, be my guest. I’ll certainly visit it if it’s good. But to be butthurt because your game wasn’t covered for reasons unkown is quite childish, as is to take it out on art games in general.

And lol @ people asking Derek to only post about “good games” when if there’s one thing that this “argument” should make clear is that “good” is an extremely subjective matter. If you want “good” games covered go ask Jim what he likes and he’ll be glad to tell you exactly what you should and what you shouldn’t play if you want to match his incedible personality and taste. On the other hand, this place provides coverage for tons of games and lets you decide what you like for yourself. To the possible extend obviously, this is still a hobby for the writers, and they have lives as well.

@Matt – i don’t remember anyone contacting me, at least, about reviewing your game. send it over to rinkuhero @ gmail dot com and i’ll take a look at it. i’m happy to do reviews on request as long as i like the game. it just may take me some time since none of us do this editorship thing full time.

(this goes for your friends too, obviously)

if i don’t decide to review it, i’ll at least get back to you to tell you why (least i could do)

Awful power you’re giving to the fat guy. To go down in history as the blackguard of an entire genre.

Don’t stretch too far on how much a critic can affect the medium. Don’t make it look like he’s making the entire choir look bad. He’s just a guy who reviews games. He will express his (often exaggerated and wildly deranged) opinions and they will reach a few minds and not most.

For every new thing out there there will be detractors and praisers, they will never be able to give the final word, either side.

I don’t like how the current Art-indie games go and history may prove me wrong, but it might just as well prove to be a big waste of time for you, I think that when it comes to taking a stand for or against the new, we can all just civilly agree to disagree (and, of course, continue to fire away at other as much as possible).

A lot of the media studies 101 waffle that art games tend to generate annoys me. But the knee-jerk anti-intellectualism that is, in turn, generated in response annoys me even more. Yes, we need more balanced, intelligent criticism. No, this isn’t it.

Neither the overblown praise of art games, or the spluttering denouncement that inevitably follows, really has anything more than a tentative connection to the actual work of game developers.

And let’s be clear – Tale of Tales are NOT representative of indie game developers (or art games) as a whole, and when they make their ridiculous statements, they are NOT speaking for everybody. You can’t criticise everybody else by association when you criticise Tale of Tales’ games.

wow.
1. stating the obvious
2. its an opinion retard
3. “you’re wrong”
4. compare to some other guy and talk down on the guy

whats your point

@eva-jolli: Alright, that’s cool.

@Derek: Yeah! That makes sense! That’s what I expected. What’s next? Decide your journey. We await your return, warrior.

come on don’t be so mean derek — just cause she doesn’t use exact english doesn’t mean you can dismiss it on the basis of style.

i.e. don’t live up to eva’s impression of you in this game: http://tinyurl.com/spelunk2

Oh, the sillyness of people.

Jimmy may not realise that his inflamatory articles do little more than push the developers of these experimental games to try harder, to show he’s wrong.

At least, that’s the way I’d feel about it.

Also, that’s he’d come out with a second article so soon after the first tells me that he’s not looking into making well-thought-out critiques or anything like that. He saw the first article gave him a bazillion hits, a link from David Jaffe and started a few flame wars, so he’s gonna ride those 15 minutes of fame for all they’re worth.

Hey, Canvinball is awesome.

Also, o eva, u so silly

that was directed to derek, i meant that as a double post since you can’t edit posts here.

@Matt: Your opinion is obviously colored by your resentment over TIGS apparently ignoring your game. I make games too, none of them have received any wide exposure and I know how disheartening it is when people don’t care about something you’ve put a lot of work into, but taking a “these ignorant fools just can’t see my genius” stance is the wrong way of handling things.

Also, I don’t know what your game even is, but requesting exposure on the grounds that it took long to make seems like skewed logic to me. It’d be the exact same as art games getting exposure simply because they’re “artistic”.

The thing I dont get is, people take crazy shots at me for making Edmund, if you don’t like it im not forcing it down your neck, Ive made other indie games too, im pretty sure no one gave a shit about My First Skydiving Academy, Zompocalypse or any other games ive worked on in my free time, as a hobby.

Its pretty sad to see people I dont even know taking shots at me, you guys need to grow up and put your time to better use than flaming people who devote there free time to making new experiences for yall to play.

I give a shit about My First Skydiving Academy!

not just standing there and letting bullies punch you anonymously doesn’t mean you can’t take a punch

>not just standing there and letting bullies punch you anonymously doesn’t mean you can’t take a punch

making a tasteless rape game doesn’t mean you’ve ever committed a rape but it certainly doesn’t help your case

“t’s pretty sad that you can’t take criticism for your tasteless rape game”

Its pretty sad you say that considering theres 20 odd pages on the forums of me willing and happy to talk Edmund, you act like im ignoring the opinions, I mean, If I was ignoring the opinions, why would I post here?

No, I am not bitter about anything. All I am doing is pointing something out that was also brought up in the discussion. Something that I and others have experienced. Wether people will agree with me or not on my opinions thats fine, its up to you all, but I am leaving my two cents, thats all I am saying.

Farmergnome: It’s a game about rape. With what that says about the person who made it, how can you not expect personal attacks?

I kind of understand why Derek might be a little irked or irritated when people are either taking what his original post and comments were out of context or simply just trying to bash his comments when he in fact didn’t bash on Jim Sterling or his comments at all. He simply tried making counter points to the points that Jim had made. In regards to the original post made by Derek I didn’t read anything that could be considered a personal attack or defamatory towards Jim. Just as Jim, in his article didn’t really attack any one person in his Destructoid Article. Instead, I think it’s the way Jim was generalizing and talking about people who appreciate “Art Games”. I could see how it might rub people the wrong way because he did come off as somewhat of an arrogant snob, which is ironic since I think one of the points he was trying to make is that people who appreciate Art Games see themselves as something of a different breed. I really don’t know if that’s true or not as a generalization, but I certainly don’t believe that the majority of people who enjoy video games and appreciate diversity in video games would feel that they are above or beyond other gamers or other human beings for that matter simply because they get something out of these experiences where others might not. There might be a handful that do, but I refuse to believe some people need to be bigger assholes to separate themselves from lesser assholes so that they might stand a little higher in the garbage heap. If we’re going to generalize then basically we’re all assholes, we’d just rather deflect and draw attention to a different asshole other than ourselves.

Wow, that was totally Ramblomatic… but I think it made sense… a little.

Anyway, point is, Derek initially didn’t start this as a Dick waving contest or as a gay bashing towards Jim Sterling. I think he simply drew attention to an article written out of passion in one form or another that made for an excellent discussion. I think some people took it the wrong way though.

@hayate,

Ya, it’s a game about rape, and I sure hope there aren’t any people in here that have ever fully watched any Hentai – in fact to watch half of the Anime or read 2/3rds of the Manga out there would be a cardinal sin as well. *extreme sarcasm sprinkled with hints of absolute truths*

I realize the subject matter of the game might be tasteless and not to your liking, but hopefully I’ve made my point. To sit here and say that you found such a game appalling only to next go to your favorite porn site is more than a little hypocritical. And I’m sure there are more than a handful of people here that leave comments, hated the game for its subject matter alone, and yet frequent Porn sites. I can only guess and that is a rather general statement, but I’d almost be willing to bet money on it… almost.

heteronomative — like heteronormative, but in name only

200 comments in one day; a record?