Download This #31

By: Tim

On: October 31st, 2006

Derek’s going to strangle me for posting ten items at once, but just like smoking, drinking and that other thing it’s a difficult habit to get rid of.

The latest (which is quite moldy by now) iteration of Download This features DEFCON, Titan Attacks and 1213. Titan Attacks is great (there’s a free version of it entitled Puppy Invaders) and 1213 is pretty good as well, but I must be the only lunatic who isn’t entirely convinced by Introversion’s latest effort or any of their previous ones.

I mean, if you’ve fought a war would you still want to relive it by playing a video game? I’m quite baffled by the fact that most kids who loved titles like the Battlefield series, America’s Army and Counterstrike never served in the army. Either that or they make excuses when asked to join the military service. Hmph.

We can hang the bloke who made Super Columbine Massacre RPG but his game is really no different than the ones put out by corporate companies.

Posted in Community

http://nullnull/ CycleNO!’s Baby

I R ART
Teeth

I prefer games that are out of the context of real life myself, though I do admit to enjoying a bit of CS now and again. But by and large I think if a game wants to send a message about war then it can very well do it through allegory.

However, I think that in this case, you are wrong, Tim. I don’t think that Defcon really brings us anything like the reality of war combat simulations. In addition I would say that it’s perfectly OK to want to play war games but not want to serve in the Army; indeed that would be rock solid evidence against the Jack Thompson school of baseless videogame persecution.

Plus by saying you’re not convinced by Introversion’s previous efforts (a trait we share at least where Darwinia is concerned) you do make yourself sound a little prejudiced against Defcon, so I hope that the rest of the post after that sentence doesn’t extrapolate from that distaste.
http://www.TScreative.net BMcC

“I donâ€™t think that Defcon really brings us anything like the reality of war combat simulations.”

Yet!

(Unless you mean in terms of how graphic it is.)
Teeth

That’s exactly what I mean. It’s surreal, almost completely detatched from reality. It’s kind of the point.
wow

Would you make the same arguments about Risk, or Stratego? Or how about Chess? Defcon strikes me as similar to the above board games than something like Battlefield.

Also, What the hell does playing war games have to do with wanting to serve in the military? Who the fuck would want to do that? By that argument, everyone who plays Phoenix Wright should want to practice law, or everyone who plays Mario wants to be a deranged plumber.

And finally, what the fuck does any of this have to do with whether the game is fun or not?
http://www.merseyremakes.co.uk/gibber Oddbob

I’m more interested in finding out what the “other thing” is… ;)
nullerator

I don’t understand this newspost – first of all, like wow says, liking to blow things out of the sky in a videogame doesn’t mean you’re going to want to do it in real life. And secondly, where’s the connection between kids liking wargames but not actual war, and the three games Introversion have put out? You say you’re not convinced by any of them, and then you start talking about military service? Eh?
Tim Fan

Sounds like Tim’s way of saying he doesn’t like games based on war / the stupid Counter Strike geeks.
http://null/ NO!

omaigodiluvcounterstrikekthxbai
Teeth

The NO! hate is getting really dull now.
anonymous

DEFCON – overhyped months before release.

1 month after DEFCON’s release – nary a word.

what’s going on here? It’s not a sequel. No one knows exactly how the game will play (except from descriptions and previews from unreliable sources)

Only reason why scores are over 80 is because they can’t back down from the hyped previews they wrote. Even GT thinks Mr. Snoozes is better (which is shit)

Are people hyping the game because:

a. It’s by Introversion
b. It’s about nuclear war, a hot topic

Discuss!
http://null/ Teeth

WTF, someone is impersonating me now? Get a life people.
Derek Fan

defcon suxx arse. buy my game aquaria instead HOMIES!!!
http://www.mod-hq.com Al3xand3r

Eh, Defcon is great, pure simplicity with a ton of strategic depth. I couldn’t care less who made it, it’s worth the money as far as I’m concerned.

What’s with the hate against Introversion anyway? Whether you like their games or not, there’s no reason to bash them for it as at the very least they are not staining the indie dev name by making caricatures of what’s hot in the big market or sequels and rehashes of their (or others’) past successes.

Or is every indie dev that gets some mainstram media recognition going to get trashed by the rest of the developers who in reality wish they were at their place?

Discuss.
NHP

if you think defcon is the greatest thing since sliced bread with butter, then why are you here for the latest indie news? why would you care about other indie games?

go hang out in their forums. they made it for shatheads like you. defcon is your world.

discuss.
Tim W.

Alright, here’s the deal. Would you be playing DEFCON if you were living in Korea?

Same goes for Battlefield, Americaâ€™s Army and Counterstrike. Would you still be playing these games if you were living in Iraq?

Have a bit of heart for people who are affected by these real life issues. If you can, do something about it. Games like these may not affect you (e.g. war and violence) but think about the kids.

Not everyone is going to shoot other people after playing violent games, but it’s getting rather frequent and you would be worried if you were attending schools.

It applies to everything, not just movies, commercial or indie games.

This is a tasteless example but bear with me, you can pelt eggs at my face later. If a corporate company made a game about suicide attacks, wouldn’t you call for the offending software to be banned?
dessgeega

tim, hon, just because other tigsource contributors use misinformed but provocative statements to generate discussion in lieu of meaningful content doesn’t mean you have to too.
nullification

Tim,

Let’s make a distinction here. Personally, I would not call for any game to be banned. I just don’t believe anyone has the right to decide FOR OTHERS what is or is not acceptable content in a game. Let truth and falsehood grapple, and all that.

But I don’t entirely disagree with you. Ideas do have consequences. Movies, books and video games affect the cultural and intellectual climate by the ideas they put forth. A lot of gamers and game developers won’t acknowledge this fact.

Partly, this is because they don’t want to give any ground to the Jack Thompson, pro-censorship types, which is understandable.

And it’s true that violence in games does not equal advocacy for real-world violence. Without the actual death and destruction, war would make a great sport. I’m fine with a little fantasy.

But many, many games portray real-world scenarios, turning the suffering and death of real people into entertainment, and minimizing the toll violence takes on society.

Just read this description of a game I saw recently on the shelves at the local EBGames:

“In Just Cause, you take on the role of the flamboyant Rico Rodriguez – an undercover CIA operative specialising in regime change – as he tries to overthrow the corrupt government of San Esperito. This rogue South American island is suspected of stockpiling WMDs and it’s your job to negate the threat to world peace.”

Hmm. Regime change, WMDs…sound familiar? This is blatant propaganda for another war based on lies. It’s written as if WMDs were actually found in Iraq and all that bloodshed was for “world peace,” so we should repeat it in Cuba.

Think of all the games out there that glorify war, murder, theft, etc. Think this has no effect on people’s perceptions of these activities? Saying “it’s just a game” is a copout.

You don’t have to believe in censorship to believe that people should take responsibility for what they create and what it says to others about the world.
NO!

yeah Tim fuck off. we love war and killing people. so shut the fuck up and do your job of updating tigsource with proper indie game news.
Derek

“tim, hon, just because other tigsource contributors use misinformed but provocative statements to generate discussion in lieu of meaningful content doesnâ€™t mean you have to too.”

But mininformed provocation is fun, and the discussion it generates can be meaningful!

Plus, you know, you still have your editor’s account… and therefore the means of posting on the frontpage and potentially counteracting whatever misinformation you think is being spread. Hint hint.
Tim W.

there’s so many editors around, sometimes we even contradict ourselves. :)
NO!

yeah bitxh, while you’re at it, get off your lazy MF ass and finish your abandoned projects as well.
http://www.mod-hq.com Al3xand3r

[quote]if you think defcon is the greatest thing since sliced bread with butter, then why are you here for the latest indie news? why would you care about other indie games?[/quote]

Nothing I said indicates that NHP (I don’t like butter). I simply said it’s a great game that is worth the money it costs.

Is there a single new game that you think is great and you devote your life to it like you want me to do for DEFCON? If so, you have issues.

Unless you got that reaction because you just download everything illegally, indie or not, therefor to you it sounds weird that someone actually paid for a game…

I’ll vote for… both.

Anyway, for the points others made, I don’t recall a worldwide nuclear war happening so I would put DEFCON in the fantasy game category… for now. And I assure you that if a nuclear war does happen then DEFCON’s existance won’t make people accept it better than they would otherwise.

If you want to bash the game for portraying killing even in such an abstract way then you really should be bashing about 50% of the indie games out there (the rest 50% are puzzle games, ha) as they involve killing in one way or another.

So, the fact you bash DEFCON/Introversion without any real reason simply shows that indie devs are only likable in these communities as long as they make games that most don’t enjoy and if they ever manage to come up with a concept that is succesful they get bashed to hell and back simply because the rest wannabe devs in the community can’t stand the fact someone else, instead of themselves, managed to make a living out of their love for developing.

PS: Counter-Strike has nothing to do with Iraq. But hey, a lot of Germans play Day of Defeat and Red Orchestra…
http://www.mod-hq.com Al3xand3r

By the way, every indie dev that makes it in the mainstream in this way (and not by making caricatures of whatâ€™s hot in the big market or sequels and rehashes of their or othersâ€™ past successes) helps make the indie devs in general more accepted and can hopefully help shape a future where indie devs don’t hide in near-underground societies.

The current representation of indie devs in the mainstream mostly comprises of Asteroids, Sudoku and Space Invaders clones so anything else is good in my book. If it happens to be a great game too, like Uplink or DEFCON, then all the better.
dessgeega

Tim, hon, I’m just going to keep calling you hon, hon, in order to sound even more condescending than usual, okay, hon?

Hon!!!!
*shrieks like a banshee*
BeamSplashX

He’ll build the Great Wall of Tim to keep out the Hons.
Derek Fan

honestly you people got your facts wrong. I can’t find anything in that post whatsoever indicating an act of defcon-bashing. tim is just using defcon as an example, just like bf, cs and aa.

the only people who would be irritated about the above statement would be teens addicted to those games, but would never join the army. or if you’re the developer.

HA! discuss.
Al3xand3r

My responses weren’t to Tim except for the bits about being real-world inspired or not. The rest were responses to people who did clearly bash DEFCON, that much is obvious I think.
http://null/ Deaf Con

I’m still planning strategies for DefCon on the way to work.
nullerator

Tim, I still don’t understand why you’re not convinced by any of Introversions games. So you dislike Defcon for being about nuclear war. What about their other games? What did Darwinia and Uplink do to offend you? Did they bring back painful memories of virus and hacker attacks or something?
Teeth

Can’t say I agree with anything you’ve posted there Tim.

*”Alright, hereâ€™s the deal. Would you be playing DEFCON if you were living in Korea?”*

Maybe. Who knows. It’s not really relevant because I don’t live in Korea.

*”Same goes for Battlefield, Americaâ€™s Army and Counterstrike. Would you still be playing these games if you were living in Iraq?”*

Probably not, because the country has been torn to fucking pieces. Honestly what a silly question. No I wouldn’t want to play war games if I was constantly in fear of my life. I wouldn’t want to play any games at all, but especially not war games.

America’s Army is horrible, nasty propoganda, and there are other nasty propoganda games out there (Weapons Of Mass Destruction, Terrorist Takedown etc), and these are abhorrent in my view, so I don’t play them – but it’s not because I feel for the people who are in war zones, it’s because the games are nightmarishly misinformed and often racist.

*”Have a bit of heart for people who are affected by these real life issues. If you can, do something about it. Games like these may not affect you (e.g. war and violence) but think about the kids.”*

Completely separate from games though. I’m sure most of us spare a thought for people who are suffering because of conflict around the world. It’s got nothing to do with gaming, though. Children shouldn’t be playing these games and in sane countries we have age ratings that prohibit their use by those who are too young to play them.

*”Not everyone is going to shoot other people after playing violent games, but itâ€™s getting rather frequent and you would be worried if you were attending schools.”*

It’s got absolutely fuck all to do with video games, Tim. Get a grip. You’re falling for the Thompson hype. I would not be worried if I were attending school, I would not be worried if I had children attending schools, and I would not be worried if I were a teacher in a school. War-based video games != school massacre. Where did you get that idea anyway?

*”It applies to everything, not just movies, commercial or indie games.”*

It applies to nothing – if people are sick, they do sick things. Giving them access to firearms just gives them an easier escape valve for that sickness.

*”This is a tasteless example but bear with me, you can pelt eggs at my face later. If a corporate company made a game about suicide attacks, wouldnâ€™t you call for the offending software to be banned?”*

It depends on how it was presented. If it were a sobering look at how these things affect people, how they come about, an examination of the mentality behind them, if it were a serious video game, if such a thing exists, then I wouldn’t mind. If it were a comedy, or a mouthpiece for a racist organisation, I’d be with you on that one.

It really sounds like you’ve fallen for the media hype on video games and their effects on people here Tim – two main ponts are, there’s no real evidence of this violence being caused by playing violent video games, and there’s legislation in place to stop young people playing or watching any media that is unsuitable for them. In addition I would say that playing games about war doesn’t automatically mean that the player is not taking war at all seriously.
Tim Fan

Hey stop bashing Tim. Join as a TIGSource editor or something if you have so much crap to say.

I’d like to see you say the same thing if one of your relatives died while fighting in Iraq. How would you know what happened to Tim?

Kids/
anonymous

I don’t care what tim’s opinions are. you guys are dicks. gametunnel, blast miner and kenta cho bashing is ok, but introversion is not? what the fuck is wrong with you people?
http://www.merseyremakes.co.uk/gibber Oddbob

Introversion are special, they’re the last of the bedroom coders you know…

…well, the last apart from every other Indie out there… *ahem*

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
Teeth

Hello, I wasn’t bashing Tim, I was responding to his post. If you’d like to respond to mine feel free to do so.

*”Iâ€™d like to see you say the same thing if one of your relatives died while fighting in Iraq. How would you know what happened to Tim?”*

It’s got nothing to do with who’s died in Iraq. That conflict is rather too young to be made into video games IMO. Unless they’re deadly serious in which case it’s possible they’d fall under interactive education software.

Saying we shouldn’t make games about war because people die and suffer horribly in a war is nonsensical.
http://www.TScreative.net BMcC

Someone be my fan.

Discuss.
Teeth

I apologise for the swearing in my earlier post.
Bedroom Coders

Okay, the floor is messy, so everyone get in my bed. Ready? Set? Code!
Guy in ThickGlasses and PJs

Launch missiles!! Nyaa!!
Raiden

Uplink – looks rubbish, but is a great idea, and executed well. This is what indie games should be about – putting concept over content.

Darwinia – I didn’t go for the “It’s all wireframes, because you are in a computer” excuse for graphics, but, I did go for the game, which was fun. More points to Introversion.

Defcon – This is like the opposite of uplink – zero content, style over substance. There’s no game here. Mainstream reviewers are idiots, they want to make people think they are cool and hip, so they bang on about this game, which just isn’t very good at the end of the day. It’s too late for the reviewers won’t admit they’ve been sold a turkey. Still, respect to Introversion because they seem to be able to sell it pretty well :) I agree it’s good for other indies as Introversion’s exposure casts a small light on the scene.

-that’s just one opinion though, and I seem to be in the minority.
null

only fags play this gay ass game
http://mrc MRC

i like alex boyers dick in my ass