Xbox Live Community Games renamed. Now – Xbox Live Indie Games

By: Xander

On: June 11th, 2009

As well as the XNA Creator’s Club Package being updated to version 3.1, one of the changes being brought about will be how Community Games will no longer be titled as such. Instead they will be headed by the title ‘XBox Live Indie Games’.

I’m not quite sure how I feel about this. It does seem to be part of a much wider movement to try and promote the more interesting XNA titles out there with a new User Ratings system which will hopefully give Hexothermic and its kin the recognition they deserve.

However, if this new branding is to include titles like “Clock 24-7” and “Remote Masseuse” then I can’t help but feel conflicted on this, as if this rebranding is simply using the wake of recent indie successes to make the questionable content of the Community Games catalogue somewhat more respectable in the public eye. I don’t mean to suggest any kind of ‘ownership’ of that word specifically, however after all the work from many communities across the world who have given the word such a prestigious weighting behind it, I just want to see it treated respectfully.

So, should we be concerned? Or do you think there could be some other positive to the name change after all?

Posted in Business, Developers, Xbox 360

avoidobject

Exactly.
Kenzya

It’s not even worth reading through all of these comments. It’s just people spewing the same arguments for each side.
http://0xdeadc0de.org Eclipse

I think we should focus less if the “xbox indie games” name is appropriate or not and more on the fact that the service is populated by amateurish content and not by indie games.
Focus on the difference from “indie” and “amateurhobbist”, the problem is not microsoft using the term, because xna was born for that, is the fact that the service is full of crap that can damage the name of indie gaming
http://0xdeadc0de.org Eclipse

IceNine don’t be silly, PC has indie titles that at the moment xna can only dream of, the tig database is full of awesome games and they are almost ALL FREE, and xna has like 1 game that doesn’t suck but it’s neither that good every 50 entries and you actually HAVE TO PAY FOR.
Every indie PC commercial game is lightyears away from xna “indie” games.

The truth is that the xna service is flooded with crap, just follow Oddbob’s XNAplay blog to see it with your eyes.
The worst thing is not that games are bad, but a lot of them are reskinned tutorials, pong clones, massage games and so on.
woppin

I agree with DrMistry’s comments. If the name change gets more coverage and more purchases from consumers thats more support going to people making games for the platform. If you don’t want to develop for Xbox, or you don’t like XNA, then don’t pay attention to it, but for those people who are having a crack at it this is probably going to help them. Just because YOU don’t like MS/XBOX/C#/DirectX/kittens doesn’t mean everyone is the same,so stop raining on their parade and the opportunities they have chosen to take, and get back to making your own stuff…
Jim Perry

@Eclipse – the internet is flooded with crap, so what? Find the good stuff and ignore the crap. There’s more than 1 good game on the service, but maybe you just didn’t bother to look that hard so you can justify your rants. As for “Every indie PC commercial game is lightyears away from xna indie games” – I call B.S. It’s absurd absolute statements like that which show your bias. Maybe when you learn to discuss the issue rationally you’ll be taken seriously.
arrogancy

I’d ignore Eclipse; he’s probably just trolling. That statement was too ridiculous to be taken otherwise.
http://0xdeadc0de.org Eclipse

I follow the xna service from the start, and there are very few good games.
Internet is surely “flooded” with crap too, but on the web you don’t have something like an unique list where to get games that mixes crap and good games, on XNA you have that. Why an user needs to spend his time searching for underexposed and underrated games on xna community service when he can spend the same ms points on xbox live? Xna is a good service, in the hands of a bunch of lamers.
Also that’s my humble opinion, XNA doens’t have games of the weight of Aquaria, World of Goo, Immortal Defense, Noitu Love 2 and similar, because developers knows that you can possibly do more bucks with a massage program or a shameless reskinned racing game starter kit.
You feel hurted from my words because you developed something for the service? you shouldn’t if you think your game is not crap
DragonSix

I agree with Eclipse to an extend: while the best XBLIG games are not crap, they are not as good as our cave story or world of goo or knytt or a lot of other games on the TIGforums.

One can hope that the rating system will improve the situation, by first showing the best rated games to the public. And thus encourage the devs to make better games.
arrogancy

“Our” Cave Story, etc….what does that mean?

And Eclipse, you’re backpeddling from “every Indie PC commercial game is lightyears away from XNA games,” to, “the very best of the best independent PC games that were in development for a year or more are better than the first games for a service that has been out for 6 months.”
http://shinji16.110mb.com Shinji16

1) Yes, most of the Community Games are crap. Some awesome stuff, but there is a shit ton of “HD Clock” and the like.
2) Yes, it’s going to tarnish the idea of what “indie” means.
3) They’re still indie games none the less, if indie means “independent”.

I’m just glad I’m finally moving away from consoles and PC’s, and getting back to arcades like I used to be.
Guy

Suddenly being indie requires to have certain production values.
I bet one day those little community games will say:
“We don’t like those indie games with their proffessional artists, abundance of resources, both time and money, and an established community like those AAA titles.
We like our little games we just make for fun and to entertain a small amount of people. Many times, it will entertain only 1 person.
To seperate our little games from the established indie games, we will call our games tinie games.”
And from this day, the tinie gamers were born, a new and fresh kind of gamers which didn’t find place at either the AAA or indie games establishments.
http://0xdeadc0de.org Eclipse

i’m not talking about production values :) i’m talking about making something for passion against making something to take some bucks, i don’t see how a peggle ripoff or an arkanoid clone can be something that’s not made to make a bunch of fast bucks. Even worse the case of a “remote massage” clone, or a reskinned starter kit.
Those developers should feel ashamed for selling an xna tutorial as it’s their own game.
If for “production values” you mean that it needs to be something that’s not a 2 hours coding crap so yeah, it needs that for me
http://0xdeadc0de.org Eclipse

anyway i’m a bit tired of reading random anonymous dudes, the discussion is interesting but it should be done on the forums, there are always too much “flame baits” in the comments section nowadays, so for who’s registered, let’s meet there
Guy

As if the “big” indie games were not made to make big bucks.
Guy

Oh and by the way, I have played some “two hours coding” games that will beat many top selling indie titles in the fun department.
RobF

Eclipse. Everyone has to start somewhere. Not *everyone* is out for the fast buck and you know full well I’ll call out those who are. Some people are just learning and dipping their toes in the water. I wouldn’t suggest anyone buy that particular stuff, but y’know, it’s perfectly alright.

Sure, the crap outweighs the gems on there. That makes it approximately no different than anywhere else and it’s a *very* immature service right now.

It’s what, 7 months old? The fact that I’ve got somewhere in the region of 40 recommended titles in my list so far (not all recommended by me, admittedly) is pretty good going IMO.

Having seen some of the stuff up and coming, the future’s looking funky.
http://0xdeadc0de.org Eclipse

RobF said < "Some people are just learning and dipping their toes in the water.">

When i used to learn programming I’ve never tried to sold my shitty pong clones.

arrogancy said:

Well no, Cactus’ games are even free, Knytt is a free game. They’re like that because they were made by love and even if they’re little pearls they still didn’t felt to sell them, XNA games aren’t even on par with indies free productions, and many times they’re worse than the average flash game on newgrounds.

And it’s not because the service is not mature, it’s because it has no control. If on a side it sounds like a great thing, in a world populated mostly by morons a service like that that works is almost utopic.
I really hope user rating will clean it a bit, but i’m not too confident in that because if you can rate only a game that you bought you will almost surely rate it good, and if you can rate games that you didn’t even played the service will be flawled too.
http://www.stegersaurus.com/ Stegersaurus

“XNA games arenâ€™t even on par with indies free productions”

Yea, a LOT of stuff that makes money isn’t on par with Cave Story. I don’t understand this statement at all. Just because there are a few prolific games that were distributed for free, that means that we as indies shouldn’t try to sell the results of our passion because they may not measure up to the most famous free games in the scene?

You sound a lot like the flamers on Gametrailers who respond to videos with “This should be free” and “I’ve seen better graphics in flash”. Why do I have to undervalue my work just because another developer valued theirs at $0? Why is flash talked about as if it is some inferior development platform?

If you don’t LIKE a game and don’t value it, don’t buy it. Maybe something, someday will reach your standards of quality and you’ll pull out that wallet.
arrogancy

Eclipse, there are no games even close to Cave Story’s dev time on the 7 month old CG right now. Again, why do you insist on comparing the most outlier independent PC game to all of CG?
PF

I think, frankly, it’s a lie to call them “games” at all. It was a lie when they were community games and it is a LIE now. In what way is the XBOX FIREPLACE a game, indie or otherwise?

On the other hand, there are some wonderful games on there: Hexy Trench, Hexothermic, and others (these two are only 200 points, too). They just need to cut out the idiot stuff. Who needs a clock radio for their XBOX? Apparently, a lot of people…
N

“And itâ€™s not because the service is not mature, itâ€™s because it has no control.”

Because there’s so much quality control on PC games…
http://0xdeadc0de.org Eclipse

@arrogancy: who said Cave Story? Don’t start saying things i never did please :) check my posts because i never mentioned Cave Story… also what that means? Cactus does awesome games in matter of days, 7 months are a lot of time for an indie developer, even in a single month you can do a small but nice game if you focus on an idea instead of trying to rip off people selling a reskinned starter kit.

@N: PC Games aren’t sold all in a single service, luckly. They works how the things works in other markets, you don’t have to sell your game side by side crap like xbox fireplace or remote massage, so don’t do stupid comparisons! it would be perfect if it worked as things on PC works.
Chris Whitman

Seeing as you aren’t going to stop marketers from trying to steal every image they can to sell their shitty products, and as there’s no legal protection for ‘things that are important to you,’ I believe the only recourse is street justice.

Where’s Mayor Mike Haggar when you need him?
N

@Eclipse: Based on what you said that wasn’t a stupid comparison. You simply said the problem was a lack of control, which is a trait of PC game dev as well. Only now are you tacking more onto that by saying it’s the combination of lack of control and the fact that it’s all a single service. It’s easy to say someone made a stupid comparison if you keep changing your position.

I guess I just don’t see the reason for any of this hostility. Why does it matter what they’re calling the games on Xbox LIVE Indie Games? Sure it’s weird that you can release a calculator and call it a game, but is that really going to end the world?

And if you don’t think there are enough good games on Xbox LIVE Indie Games, go ahead and make the next World of Goo and put it up there. Then there won’t be that problem.
arrogancy

@Eclipse

You’re right, someone else said Cave Story. You mentioned Aquaria (over a year, correct?), World Of Goo, Noitu Love 2 (which was made with gamemaker, lessening dev time, which was STILL extensive), etc. So, same point.

Cactus? There are a lot of games on there as good or as better as Cactus’ stuff – the “small but good” games that you mentioned already.

Your positions keep jumping all over the place as well – everytime you’re cornered, you make a new jump.

My point is that there are plenty of games on CG as good as the average game highlighted on Tigsource, and that over time, you’ll see games that are as good or better than the best as it goes, and that “it’s full of apps” or “not as good as any of the games featured here” are really ignorant statements. Understandable ignorance, but still ignorance. At best, it’s hyperbole, at worst, trolling for a reaction.
Paul Eres

“And Eclipse, youâ€™re backpeddling from â€œevery Indie PC commercial game is lightyears away from XNA games,â€ to, â€œthe very best of the best independent PC games that were in development for a year or more are better than the first games for a service that has been out for 6 months.â€”

trivia: immortal defense, which he mentioned, was made in 6 months.
Anthony Flack

They can call it “XBox Bumfuck Fantasy” for all I care; I just want to know WHEN I will be able to access the service from New Zealand, and find out for myself if any of the games are any good or not.
Jim Perry

“trivia: immortal defense, which he mentioned, was made in 6 months.”

Just for the record – no one has said that the crap items on XBLCG took 6 months. All references to amounts of time were for the service from what I can see. If the various massage games and such took more than a couple weeks I’d be surprised and only that long because it was more than likely that the developers didn’t know C# or the XNA Framework. I could turn out the crap stuff in a matter of hours.

If you guys are going to do comparisons, make sure both sides are equal, otherwise you just end up looking silly (well, sillier).
Mk

This marks 131 comments on a post that is honestly about the mere word “Indie”.. a post that is now ECLIPSING all the actual positive posts of indie games and events.. ones that have been given a fraction of the attention this one is getting…..
I know because i come here a lot.

:(
Anthony Flack

Well the games can’t be THAT independent if Microsoft can block me from accessing them, can they…
Guy

Anthony Flack, what does that got to do with anything?
Those games are indie, because of their developement process.
If BFG decides to sell games at 7 dollars and gives the developers no other choice, does that make their games not independant?
Anthony Flack

Yeah. I kind of think that it does mean that.

If you are beholden to your publisher, then it isn’t really an independent game in any meaningful sense. If BFG is dictating terms to the developer, then the project isn’t independent. Other people are telling you what to do.

Now, we are an independent DEVELOPER making an XBLA game, self-funding and self-publishing. But I don’t feel like the game itself is independent – we have all kinds of restrictions and ultimately Microsoft is the gatekeeper who will decide when, how, and in what form the game will be released.