Xbox Live Community Games renamed. Now – Xbox Live Indie Games

By: Xander

On: June 11th, 2009

As well as the XNA Creator’s Club Package being updated to version 3.1, one of the changes being brought about will be how Community Games will no longer be titled as such. Instead they will be headed by the title ‘XBox Live Indie Games’.

I’m not quite sure how I feel about this. It does seem to be part of a much wider movement to try and promote the more interesting XNA titles out there with a new User Ratings system which will hopefully give Hexothermic and its kin the recognition they deserve.

However, if this new branding is to include titles like “Clock 24-7” and “Remote Masseuse” then I can’t help but feel conflicted on this, as if this rebranding is simply using the wake of recent indie successes to make the questionable content of the Community Games catalogue somewhat more respectable in the public eye. I don’t mean to suggest any kind of ‘ownership’ of that word specifically, however after all the work from many communities across the world who have given the word such a prestigious weighting behind it, I just want to see it treated respectfully.

So, should we be concerned? Or do you think there could be some other positive to the name change after all?

Posted in Business, Developers, Xbox 360

http://www.glaielgames.com Glaiel Gamer

I’m not too happy with the change, as it seems to imply that Indie is separate from XBLA, and the community games are mostly crap, so in the public eye it’s like “Do I want an Indie game or do I want a good game?”
Kenzya

Of course they’re trying to make more money. Microsoft is a corporation and the people who make community games are still people. Everyone wants more money. A name change like this can’t really negatively effect anything so why the hate? Everything on there is as indie as everything reported on, on this site.

Besides, indie is just a word.
Yougiedeggs

We should absolutely worried.
The G4 channel has a segment called Indie Games, but it’s hardly representative. They post “games” such as the google image tagging game. Blegh. They always end the segment with “Hey, what do you want for free?” Suggesting this is the best indie games have to offer.

And now Microsoft is pawning off these games as all “indie”? We’re getting a bad rep.
Developers, Developers, Developers

They will own everything, eventually. It’s only a matter of time.
konjak

Tomorrow there will be 200+ comments.
Paul Eres

i agree with glial gamer :)

although i don’t own an xbox so this doesn’t really affect me. but from what i gather, calling the community games indie implies that braid, geometry wars, etc., are *not* indie — which is weird.
Yougiedeggs

Very very good point Paul.
http://www.dreamofwinds.com/lonely/ Mike

Yeah, it’s safe to say that we’re screwed.

Thanks Microsoft PR.
Casey

The fact of the matter is, they are indie games. That’s what’s in there. Why be dismissive of these people when we could instead be getting in touch with them, giving them feedback, helping them learn and grow and hopefully make better games? I agree that it could be confusing because there are games that are technically indie in XBLA as well but to complain about the labeling because you don’t want to be associated with those games comes off as really prickish.
http://www.glaielgames.com Glaiel Gamer

No it’s not prickish, it’s the same reason why I HATE people lumping all flash games together, and thinking of them all as small, viral bloons-like crap casual games.

Lets just say, there have been multiple times where people ask me what games I’ve made, and I mention a bunch of flash ones, and they go “so no REAL games then?” because of the stupidass connotation that they’ve gotten from the mountains and mountains of shit flash games that get released every fucking second.

What microsoft is doing could eventually lead to a similar effect with “indie”.

I mean, right now the public associate indie with good, because the only indie they know really are braid, castle crashers, flow, and world of goo. I.E., quality stuff. Microsoft knows this, and is trying to cash in on it without caring that in the long run it’s gonna completely devalue the term “indie”
Paul Jeffries

If only somebody had trademarked the word ‘indie’, then we could threaten Microsoft with legal action and stop them from using it…
Shoo

I agree with Casey. They are indie games. Plain and simple.

Glaiel Gamer, what you’re bothered by is stereotyping of a category, not the use of a category itself. Calling them indie, which is what they are, implies nothing but the truth. Saying “They’re all bad because they’re indie,” is something different, which bothers me too.

I don’t think we should reserve a true term like ‘indie’ just for the things we subjectively think are ‘high quality.’ Who’s to say, really?
Esquar

Just remember Sturgeon’s Law people, 90% of everything is crap, deal with it.

Besides, the opposite effect could happen as well of course, people perceiving the indie brand as something that you can actually play, as opposed to some obscure collection of bedroom programmer shmups.

I don’t really think people should place too much value on the term anyway, with the IGF accepting Pixeljunk Eden and YHTBTR as serious contenders these days.
http://www.glaielgames.com Glaiel Gamer

“Glaiel Gamer, what youâ€™re bothered by is stereotyping of a category, not the use of a category itself.”

Do you fail to see that this is a very likely potential effect of what microsoft is doing to “indie”?
Shoo

All they are doing is using the term to describe what the term describes. The ‘potential effect’ isn’t their fault.
http://www.dreamofwinds.com/lonely/ Mike

Sadly, Shoo has a point if we’re talking about strictest definition.

Glaiel is more interested in ‘damage control’ when it comes to the terminology.

I don’t think we are in a position to judge what ‘qualifies’ as indie and what isn’t. But I also don’t want the mainstream people associating indie with ‘another stupid arcade clone.’

Damn, this really is a sticky situation.
DominicWhite

This is just a stark reminder that the vast majority of independently developed games are terrible. It’s something we forget on blogs like this, where the crap gets filtered out by the editors, but there really are a million cheap knockoff puzzle games, half-assed business sims, and wannabe space-invaders clones out there, and a lot of them are actually on sale for real money.

Nothing wrong with calling it what it is. It’s just an uncomfortable shock for some.

As was said, 90% of everything is crap. Probably a slightly higher percentage than that in the world of independent software development, where ‘quality control’ is often a couple of the developers friends.
http://www.glaielgames.com Glaiel Gamer

Ya, but it’s BETTER for us if the PUBLIC doesn’t realize that.
Shoo

That’s a good summation, Mike. Glaiel, I totally understand why you don’t want people making assumptions about indie games because of poor associations. However, I think the need to get over stereotypes lies with the individual who would make such a stereotype, not the source of the poor associations.
http://www.dreamofwinds.com/lonely/ Mike

I dunno, it does strike me as dishonest behaviour to children the public in such a manner. In any case, there isn’t anything that can be done.
http://www.dyson-game.com Rudolf

The problem isn’t the amount of crap, the problem is the poor browsing and rating facilities and the generally bad way MS have organised their digital store.

Amazon is full of crap, but nobody complains about it because its infrastructure allows people to find what they like!
DominicWhite

Oh yeah – in addition to the name change, one feature they’re adding is the ability to rate games, so that the good stuff and/or sort by popularity should float to the top, while the crap gets buried. Theoretically.
Sigvatr_

Bunch of angry nerds getting angry at stupid shit.
BearFoo

From a public point of view, the name change is much needed.

I believe it was meant to be the idea that that the CreatorsClub Community itself wouldn’t directly police what went up or not (within reason), they would be there to advise fellow members as to the quality of a title if it was requested.
And you see with the iPhone, the lower the barrier to entry to having your game/app hosted in a “offical” capacity, the more exposure you get to people using it as a way of finding their feet by creating their first attempt at little pong & space invaders clones.

If the name change and the introduction of a in-dashboard ratings & sorting results in a increased exposure of the better quality titles on the service; And if it helps premote a better sense of ownership of the quality of the games that some people put onto the channel then that can only be a good thing.
defacid

Ratings don’t work. Look at Yoyo Games. Even the crap is high rated there. -_-
bateleur

I’m with Glaiel on this one. Terms can develop a de-facto meaning completely different from their dictionary meaning. Indie gaming is a hard term to pin down, but it has come to mean something.

This move by MS isn’t a lie as such, but it’s very misleading. It would be like labelling one rack in a record store with “good music”. Amounts to an implicit statement about all those other racks, doesn’t it?
nihilocrat

I think it’s honestly Microsoft trying to make Community games seem more appealing because “Indie” is becoming more of a trendy term to use. I’m still a little concerned if this is going to trickle down into a negative public image of “indie” and thus possibly threaten the sales / image of full-time indie devs.
Casey

bateleur: your comparison doesn’t make any sense, because “good” is a term that *directly states* the quality of the music. It’s a word that exists solely to imply quality and nothing else.

This puts the people who make games for XNACG on the same playing field as everyone else, and what’s wrong with that? As usual, the individual curation of quality will help spread the word on the highest-quality games, and there’s no reason that there shouldn’t be good indie games on Xbox Live that haven’t gone through the crazy certification and corporate bullshit that is XBLA.
Nick

I think the renaming is less to do with trying to pass off the junk that’s on XBLCG now as “indie” or good, but rather to try and draw more consumer interest and to encourage more developers who can produce good titles to look at the platform. As is there are a lot of talented devs who scoff at the platform, so the renaming is to try and help drive more consumer interest and, thus, bring more high quality devs and games to the platform.

It’s a win for consumers (who get more games), it’s a win for devs (who get more money), and it’s a win for Microsoft (who strengthen their developer and platform base, as well as making a little bit of money).

I also don’t think any of this will affect people making the next Braid or Castle Crashers. Those are games that stand on their own and don’t need some label to sell them.

Besides, “indie” shouldn’t be some exclusive club that someone gets to decide who belongs and who doesn’t.
http://xona.com/ Matthew Doucette

From the perspective of an Xbox LIVE Community Game (Xbox LIVE Indie Game) developer, this is a huge positive change. When I talk about my game and have to physically say “xbox live community games” it sounds ridiculous and you have to get into explaining the community aspect, which matters little if at all to the gamer. If I could instead say “indie games” section on xbox, I don’t need to waste time explaining what “indie” means, and it helps indicate we are, in fact, an indie game studio. Not only is this a good move, I fought for this in the xna.com forums against Microsoft MVPs and xna.com moderators. I can’t believe it happened, but this is a good thing. Why? It means Microsoft is listening, and chooses to listen to game developers (and gamers) over forum moderators and MVPs when adjendas clash. Go ask any gamer not already in the know, “What is a community game?” And then ask them what an indie game is. Another huge problem this solves is that XBLCG (XBLIG) games receive little marketing, and this name change lets us market ourselves more easily, without the burden of explaining some unintuitive and cumbersome name.
http://xona.com/ Matthew Doucette

Bottom line, if you care to read the xna.com forum thread that started this all, is “community” is the word the XNA team wants developers to hear, and “indie” is the word they want gamers to hear. Since the problem is (or has become) getting word out to the gamers, not the developers, this move was brilliant.
RobF

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. The public are already aware that there isn’t a magic Indie goose that shits gold, believe me – they’re still willing to accept the chunky nuggets of lovely when they do pop out of the backside of Indie.

The games *are* Indie (with incredibly scant exception), I’m extra happy with it as branding aside, it lays down a pretty clear message of what XBLCG is actually for. That’s a top bonnet thing, that.

Nothing to be threatened about at all. For all its flaws and crap flooded, I *love* that XBLCG exists. It’s not the redheaded stepchild of the Indie scene that’s somehow steeped in poo, it’s just a reflection of the realities outside (as Dominic says above) of the filtering places like Tigs provide.
bateleur

@Casey>

> This puts the people who make games for
> XNACG on the same playing field as
> everyone else, and whatâ€™s wrong with
> that?

Definitely nothing wrong with that. The point of my example was that by describing one small subset of their game range explicitly as “Indie” they’re implying things about the rest.
RobF

That most of them aren’t? It’s not entirely inaccurate is it?
http://wherecouldtom.be Tom Sennett

Man. Think of what this will do to googling “indie games”.
avoidobject

I’m with Sigvatr on this one. It’s very rarely often you see him post around here and I love his ability to create controversy and chaos. Listen to this man, he knows what he is talking about.
http://0xdeadc0de.org Eclipse

frankly this suck, the community service is an utter piece of garbage because the lack of any quality check, and the user rating scares me as well
RobF

Yup, I agree.

We should stop calling things Indie because there’s crap being made in its name!

Oh wait…
Beachlog

Eclipse said:
“frankly this suck, the community service is an utter piece of garbage because the lack of any quality check, and the user rating scares me as well”

There most certainly is a quality check — the Peer Review process…as a Peer Reviewier you absolutely have the right to reject a game based on its quality.

Would you rather the alternative — Microsoft policing game submissions? (Which will never happen because that would open a huge legal can of worms). The last thing Microsoft wants to have is a bunch of lawsuits from Indie Developers cyring that Microsoft prevented them from shipping their game due to quality or some other “subjective” measure.

The entire service is designed to be operated by and (for some) profited on by the Community. That includes the Peer Review process, and now also includes the User Ratings process.
http://chaoseed.com/garden John Evans

What the heck is “Clock 24-7” and why should we care?
kongming

“All they are doing is using the term to describe what the term describes. The â€˜potential effectâ€™ isnâ€™t their fault.”

Yeah, let’s give corporations carte blanche to do whatever the fuck because you’re a child who doesn’t understand culture or sociology or psychology.

I bet you think fashion mags have nothing to do with how we form our standards of beauty, too.
http://www.travispendlebury.com l’elk!

i wonder if the term “indie” for games will eventually lose popularity due to over-saturated use? much like the term “indie music” simply became a definition of a contemporary subculture of music.

marketers catch on to popular words and start applying them to things that really have nothing to do with the words original meaning. then people start losing faith in the word and start coming up with new words to define their projects.

maybe we should call them alternative games or maybe new wave games or… oh wait…..
http://www.stegersaurus.com/ Stegersaurus

@Beachlog
Actually, in the peer review process you don’t have the right to reject a game based on quality. There are usability guidelines that must be followed but if you just go “this game sucks, no XBLIG for you” that’s not allowed.

I think that this isn’t a bad thing. It’s just another distribution medium for games that were essentially indie to begin with. There have always been “bad” indie games, so why can’t the XBox call their indie games indie? If I search for Indie games on google I’ll probably get bad games also! The stand out titles are still going to be the ones that get “real” attention, whether those games are on XBox or PC or whatever platform.
Kian

Wait a minute, did you guys decide what indie means while I was away from the Internet? :)
Malasdair

Was the game produced independently from a major studio, even if a major studio distributes it? (what the major game studios are isn’t even delineated yet – arguing about this could take days) Then it’s indie. Any other definition is strictly what you bring to the table. Indie games are great, indie games are raw, indie games are polished, and indie games suck – just like real games!
http://www.roachpuppy.com IceNine

Not this again.
http://gamingdead.com Naught

I don’t understand. Some people are bothered because indie games are being labeled as indie games? It’s unfortunate that not all the Xbox live community games are gems, but that’s just the reality of the situation. Not all indie games are gems, plain and simple.
Quazi

have any of you ever even seen 90% of GM and MMF games? have any of you seen all the crap indie games on the interwebs? HAVE ANY OF YOUR FIRST GAMES BEEN CRAP BUT YOU WISHED TO SHOW THEM OFF ANYWAYS?

we dont own the word, and the word is being used appropriately. oh yeah btw, flash games are branded badly because of what theyre made on moreso than what they are. ALL flash games run pretty slow, and generally flash isnt seen as a game making program to most.
http://www.glaielgames.com Glaiel Gamer

@Quazi

Thank you for proving my point about flash games
namuol

this is almost as bad as debating over what “art” is.

Stop mixing up connotation with definition.

“indie” isn’t a name.
“indie” isn’t a title.
“indie” isn’t a club.
“indie” isn’t a brand.
“indie” isn’t a genre.
“indie” isn’t a style.
“indie” isn’t a theme.
…

An “indie” game is a game that was developed without dependence on third-party publishers (PERIOD).

Sorry, I just hate when clearly-defined words lose their meaning.