VVVVVV – RELEASED!

FFFFFFF YES

YES VVVVVV

; U ; looking forward to playing this so much!

YYYYYYes.

those interested in walls of text discussing whether the game is great or terrible should check out the vvvvvv post’s comments section on timw’s blog :)

Also remember that not liking bad games is considered a crime here and on tinw’s blog as well.

nah, not liking games is fine, it’s just saying that the people who do like them are lying or fooling themselves (like pyrrhuloxia did over there) or using personal insults that’s frowned upon. it’s also kind of funny when people get so worked up about games they hate that they spend 10 pages and dozens of comments arguing against people who like it that it’s a bad game — you’d think that if they didn’t like it, they’d just say that and move on with their lives.

it’s like, there are plenty of games i don’t like. there are plenty of games i’m unable to enjoy, for whatever reason. but i don’t spend hours arguing with the people who like them that they shouldn’t like those games, that’s just perverse. i don’t like halo but some of my best friends love the game, and i’m even friends with a guy who runs a halo clan. but i haven’t wasted a single minute arguing with him that halo is a bad game, because i know it’d be a waste of time and a ridiculous thing to argue about.

anyway, enough about that, enjoy the game! (or not!)

I’ve been looking forward to trying this for ages! The demo’s brilliant. Definitely going to be making a purchase.

Actually, this is the first time for months that I’ve even played an indie game. If only more developers would take a leaf out of Terry’s book and release mac versions.

Cool! I’m looking forward to trying this out.

BTW, Xander: in “sewed the seeds of anticipation,” it should be “sowed.” Sewing is what you do with a needle and thread. :)

Tried the demo, I’ll take it as fast I have some internet bucks.
It’s not the greatest thing ever but it’s a nice little game, very well designed

oh and the soundtrack kicks some serious butts

Cheers Craig! I actually didn’t realise the difference.

Having an awful lot of fun with this now, though I think I’m going to have to switch to a controller soon enough. It’s too cold here for my fingers to be that dexterous.

I think bare-bones vector-looking graphics are some kind of game designer code for “you, cm, are going to suck at this”.

Good golly!

Congrats on the release! I’ve been hearing about this game EVERYWHERE.

So glad I pre-ordered this. I love it so far. Nice job, Terry!

$15 for this? And people are going to buy it? No thanks.

played the demo, brilliant… but 15 bucks its a little too much for me; braid costs like 10 bucks and has a lot more developement

God damn, I am so sick of masochistic retro-styled single screen platformers and chiptune music.

And I love this game. It’s the first indie game I’ve gotten into in a LONG time. It’s one of those rare games that you actually need to play to appreciate, rather than just read a description or watch a video.

jesus christ this game is hard

In regards to the graphics:
On Terry’s recent indiegames.com interview, I thought that this was very interesting:

“Visually, I was really just responding to something Paul Eres said that annoyed me, where he accused developers on TIGSource of having a “retro fetish”. I figured since I’d only planned to do this as a short side game anyway that it might be nice to indulge my own retro fetish, and make something that looked and felt like the C64 games I grew up with.“

VVVVVV was only going to be a small project, and it wasn’t until he started designing levels that it became something this big (read: too late to want to consider redoing the graphics).

@ffffff – braid cost like $20 when it was first released for pc, i believe. there was a big hubbub about braid costing too much too, if you don’t recall. games go down in price over time. if the game is still $15 in three years, then you’d have a point.

I think it’s pretty sweet! However, a pay for each chapter kind of thing would be cool, like 3 for a chapter perhaps, or 15 for the whole game. Then it’s 18 dollars if you buy all 6 one at a time, or 15 for buying them in one shot. May also allow people who only have a tiny bit of e-change to get hooked. Anyways, great work on it Terry!

Is it ok to shorthand this to WWW?

excellent newwws! congrats, Terry!

there’s a lot of fantasticity (yes) in there, awesome amount of polish, and it feels darn right. I’ll probably fork out the $15 even though I’m one of those who feel it might be just a bit too much. (on the other hand I guess I don’t really know the real scale of the game.)

oh. and the music is fucking fantastic; easily the catchiest vg tunes lately.

I like the little guy’s expression.

just beat it. took 1:47, with 785 deaths (that’s one death every 8 seconds). the controls felt a little sloppy, but I loved the exploration aspect, and the story was a nice touch. there were difficult rooms (“do what I say…” was my worst, with 52 deaths) but none so hard that I gave up. it’s a great game overall.

I’m really enjoying this one! This is one of those retro-tastic platformers that is filled to the brim with goodness. It may not be for everyone, but I’m pleasantly surprised by how much game there is even though it’s not a very long game. I’m having a blast though and I’d definitely recommend it to anyone who enjoys playing video games, period. Be warned, this game is tough but finishing the game and finding all the trinkets are worth the reward.

However, I do have one problem with the title, it should have been called “Left for Dead” but a similar title was already taken (see Valve), simply because it can be tougher than Left 4 Dead in Hard mode! ;-) But then, L4D wasn’t that tough in Hard Mode anyway. And no, VVVVVV isn’t so difficult that only a gaming Guru could finish it, just know that you will die a’plenty before you’ve finished it – and good luck with getting all of the trinkets! :-)

If I had a wish list for VVVVVV it would be an online and offline scoreboard kind of like the ones found in puppygames games, but with more extensive information (times, deaths, minigames, etc. etc. etc.) Just the thought of it sounds fun. My “scores” would probably suck, but it would be fun to compare.

For the love of all that is good though, don’t axe an offline scoreboard for an online one. Either keep the offline by itself or enhance the game to have an online scoreboard as well. That goes for all you game developers who think you’re smart but don’t seem to understand that not everyone is happy with online scores only. ;-P

@orange,

I hope that’s the expression I have on my face when I die – whether being impaled, crushed, sliced, zapped, or natural causes. :-)

$15 you have to be joshing me

I played the demo, and I think making the demo available on Kongregate is a great move. The music is great, the level titles are clever, and challenges feel just about right.

My only concern is that 15 bucks is a pretty steep price for entry, and that the game simply isn’t going to last past a few hours even considering replays.

I’m wishing the developers luck, though.

-SirNiko

I have the full version since I pre-ordered, but unfortunately while the demo is available on linux the full version isn’t!

@paul eres
yeah, i’m aware of that, but my point is braid has so much more develompent than this.

i was able to play the first part using the sad (and ugly as hell) face instead of the happy one! (i don’t know if this is actually a bug, first time i played it i had the happy face)

when you collect the shiny trinket and then you die, you go back to the last checkpoint as if you collected the shiny trinket… so there’s no point to goin back, you can just die and do it faster

btw… music is AWESOME

The Trinket issue is actually a good accessibility feature. It’s called positive permanence and helps remove frustration while learning.

Even in the demo a lot of the later trinket spots have forced checkpoints so that you Have to go back the way you came, and if you got the trinket you are respawning at the trinket.

5 to 10 dollars would be the appropriate price for this. Even 10 bucks is pushing it for a 2 hour flash game.

Take Dino Run, for instance. Free with a lot more stuff to do, and the option to donate for some extras.

I think the price is right. Some people didn’t have a chance to pre-order the game because they weren’t even aware of the pre-order offer, but the price going up a bit is usually what happens when you miss a pre-order (in regards to many indie games). It gives the developers a bit of a leg up, especially regarding future developments. The thing is, you are not obligated to buy the game, as with any other game out there, instead try the demo out. If you enjoy it then you will most certainly enjoy buying the game at only $15 dollars. The majority of us are liking the game and enjoying it very much. If anything, the ones that do like it are trying to describe why they like it. I still haven’t come across a game out there that everyone could agree to like or enjoy, and so if you don’t enjoy the demo or don’t like the look or sounds of the game then please save your money, perhaps your game is coming out sometime in the near future. However, the game is a fair price. Terry put a lot of work into it, and I might add that from everything I’ve read, he’s even been stressed about the game – which is common for most developers on release day. Terry has been very forward though in explaining how much this game means to him. It’s important to him on a number of levels and is also a big turning point for him (if you’ve kept up with his game development career).

I’ve spent larger amounts on “Mainstream” games that I totally regretted (and still regret) paying for.
$15 dollars is a fair sum for the game. It’s a unique experience and very entertaining. Perhaps you won’t like it, but you won’t know unless you try the demo. If you don’t like the demo at all then by all means, don’t buy a game that you don’t like. Please be gracious enough to appreciate that this was made by one guy (with some help from a couple of creative people) a lot of heart, and no money.

It’s really simple, try the demo. Hopefully you’ll enjoy it, and if you can’t, then allow the rest of us to enjoy it for you. :-) Supporting an indie developer who’s games you enjoy is a great way to make sure that person can keep developing games in the future though.

Inverse is a noun not a verb. Invert! Invert!

Looking forward to playing this!

$15 too much? Maybe, but heck, I’m probably going to enjoy this more than I enjoyed Braid…

i also liked it more than braid (although i did enjoy braid quite a bit too). i don’t think price should have anything to do with “development”, whatever that means (development costs? development time? team size?). or game length, or enjoyment, or what a game is “worth”. price is usually based on the point at which the game returns the most profit.

I don’t get that people saying that this is overpriced. It’s about the same as three pints of beer, or a cinema ticket, both of which would be over quicker and have no “replay value” whatsoever.

Yeah, I don’t get why people are so stingy with games, but throw money out the window for everything else. I occasionally read Toucharcade and cringe every time someone complains about a game’s $2.50 price tag.

Also, as far getting the most out of a single mechanic goes, VVVVVV is absolutely on par with Braid, in my opinion.

God damn I would love to enjoy flash games, but they all run like treacle.

I don’t like how fast the character moves.

I only played the demo, and I don’t have any other real complaints, but I really just don’t like having to tap-tap-tap my arrow keys to get my character to move where I want. Kinda ruins the fluidity of the thing.

I still enjoyed it, but I think I’ll wait for a price drop. (Well to be fair, I’d wait for a price drop anyways because I just don’t have that much money, but you know.)

And, like everyone else, I’m in love with the soundtrack.

FUCK YEAH

Awesome music! I really hope a soundtrack is forthcoming.

The little guy handles like a wet soapbar, making the game much harder than it would otherwise be. It’s a design choice that can put people off.

What I really like is that Terry Cavanagh didn’t skimp on save points. That’s what I actullay hate in some hardcore games: spacing out save point to artificially harden a game. Terry is generous with death. Which there is a lot of, but in this case you generally don’t mind. (Thanks to the (subtle?) design choice of not underlining deaths with sound effects.)

Nice idea, nice graphics. Too bad it runs very slow on my Pentium 4 with 1GB RAM…

Well the demo was a joy to play.

Flawlessly elegant design, attractive presentation, and witty too (hey, it’s the ghost of Dizzy!). I fucking loved it. It rules.

Yet it didn’t make the cut at the IGF? I’d be VERY surprised if all the finalists are better than this.

Cannot wait to buy this tomorrow. Absolutely lovely demo.

@pierre b. – the soundtrack is already out, on sale for $4 on the musician’s site.

> (like pyrrhuloxia did over there)

That guy’s pretty obviously a troll–he’s just saying that nonsense to get a reaction.

> it’s also kind of funny when people get so worked up about games they hate that they spend 10 pages and dozens of comments arguing against people who like it that it’s a bad game – you’d think that if they didn’t like it, they’d just say that and move on with their lives.

Two points :

* Figuring out exactly what is wrong with something bad can actually be fairly interesting

* It’s perfectly possible for something to be compelling without actually being good.

Only $15? Jeez, I hope folks donate, because we owe much more than that to a guy like Terry.

;)

This is exciting, I’ll have to give it another playthrough later!

Oh, btw that wasn’t sarcasm at all. I really think $15 is a very decent price for the game, and I love Terry <3

Well, it looks like those 4chan bastards leaked the game over on /f/ again. I’m not linking because I actually want others to buy the game >:(

The 4chan leak is actually just a leak of the Beta (I looked at it; it’s idenitcal to the beta and nothing like the full version).

This means anybody who thinks they’re getting the game for free that way isn’t really.

It’s pretty horrible anyway.

@ Pierre B.
No such thing as an artificially hard game. If a game gets fewer checkpoints it becomes harder period.

Game’s OK. Dunno if it’s really worth the time or money, though. Like most of these indie frustration platformers, there’s really only one solution to each area, so there’s like no reason to keep playing after you’ve gotten everything. Story is basic stuff and the graphics are meh. I do like the music and the scope of the world you’re in, but there really just isn’t much to figure out. It’s just checkpoint after checkpoint of getting your muscle movements just right to move from one side of a room to the other. Just isn’t much to keep me interested.

Look, there are just tons of AMAZING platformers, puzzle platformers, action platformers, etc. out there, that I could play a hundred times and never get bored of. And there are tons of pretty decent platformers for free. Considering all that, stuff like this that’s only fun once and costs 15 bucks seems kind of silly to me. But it’s really just dandy if some of you thinks this is the second coming or something. I honestly don’t care about this game enough to pick a fight about it.

I agree with Anarkex. There’s nothing in it to make me want to play past the first time, and I learned my lesson with Braid about paying too much for games with no replay value, even if they have great music or look great.

I did once pay 10 bucks for a 5.25″ floppy with Mario Bros on it, though. Not Super Mario Bros, but Mario Bros. Tons of replay value there, bad graphics, no music. Take that however you want.

I don’t get it. What’s so special about this game? The gameplay looks extremely frustrating and repetitive and the graphics are bad (call them retro if you will). And 15$ for this???

Completed! :-D

997 deaths… although 170 of those were on The Final Challenge.

I won’t be trying for the full set of shinies, though. That one that’s halfway up the Tower… accidentally touch a later checkpoint and you can’t go back to it except by redoing the entire Tower. Eeek! No way! :-P

I got all 20 trinkets, just so you know – there is more game after collecting all of them so it is worthwhile pushing for them.

I’m not paying for another sadistic one-room platformer with “retro” graphics.

Ahhh. I can see the distinction between the two. At any rate, the leaked beta is down now, so no worries.

@rpmoura

I’m guessing you’re young and not British, so the chances are that you’ll never figure it out.

For me though, it’s a return to form and an evolution of an old gaming style, it’s all the fun of the old-school with the frustration brought about by poor design choices removed!

:D

@The Vagrant Werewolf

FYI, I played loads of platformers on the spectrum. This game looks to me like devolution, not evolution. It brings back the frustration brought about by poor design choices which were since removed by better games.

So, I’m not British but I’m not young either. Do you have to be British and nostalgic to like this game? Good luck with that then.

Why Star Guard was chosen for the IGF and this wasn’t is beyond me.

No hate intended.

@totomoerch

To be honest, I have as much love for Star Guard as I have for VVVVVV. They’re both clever little gems, and undiluted gaming fun.

In my opinion, they both should have been there, not one or the other. They’re both worthy.

In fact, this decision is going to cause some animosity toward Star Guard, and that’s not really fair, since it is a brilliant little game.

But yes, this is one of the reasons I’m baffled by the IGF. I don’t take so much notice of it myself, really. I know VVVVVV and Star Guard are works of excellence, and that’s all I need.

I really liked this game, but it’s a bit short, and the ending is kinda.. unsatisfactory. It seems to be just one guy in a room saying something.

Regarding the price and some of the moaning coming from people, I thought of a practical way to perhaps increase the value of peoples $15 dollars.

Terry could include a readme.txt file that opens up right after installation just shouting out a quick hello to the gamer(s). He could then include something like,

“I really hope you enjoy VVVVVV, and if you do then you might be pleasantly surprised by these other games that I’ve made. They’re fast, fun, and they’re free of charge. Thanks for buying VVVVVV and be sure to try my other games at no extra cost.”

Then he could include a brief synopsis of each game and a link to those games ala:

This is a short but sweet quick, run and jump platformer that can be played through your web browser:

- Link 1

This is a puzzle adventure game with all kinds of pee-pees and poo-poos…

- Link 2

etc.
etc.
etc.

It’s just a thought, but perhaps this will grab the attention of gamers that haven’t discovered Terry’s other games yet, and who knows, it might increase the value of VVVVVV to some people… I’m not sure, but it might be a slight solution for some.

Of course there will always be a handful that will bitch and moan that won’t leave the rest of us to enjoy the game, but that’s to be expected with any game and at any forum where any tom-dick-and-harry-nitwit can leave a comment. ;-P

I’m pleased with my purchase though. So the negative comments only make for a few more seconds of mulling through any given comment section with a little more eye-rolling than necessary, whether it’s here or any other site that allows users to leave comments.

I’m happy for Terry though, and whether or not you like the game, you should have the decency to be happy for Terry and his persistence and the gusto of the gamers that do like his games. He didn’t make this game to piss you off, it’s there because he thought some people would enjoy the game… and not surprisingly, they do.

@consumatopia – i agree, and figuring out why games are bad can make you a better game designer, but why not discuss why a game is bad with others who think it’s bad or others who don’t care about the game, instead of trying to convince people who like it that they should not like it?

it seems to me a morally repugnant thing to do, a bit like convincing a kid that he shouldn’t really have fun playing with his favorite toy, because you think it’s a stupid toy. because even if someone succeeds in doing that, what have they accomplished? gotten someone to have less fun with something they used to have fun with, but no longer have fun with.

to me, games achieve their purpose when people have fun with them; that’s the entire point. figuring out why it doesn’t accomplish that goal when it doesn’t is great, but trying to argue people into not having fun with something they are enjoying already?

and no, i don’t think pyrrhuloxia is a troll, i think it was just his honest opinion that it was a bad game — read his second wall of text, it’s more mild and apologetic, as if he realized that he was trying to convince a room full of kids playing pokemon cards that pokemon cards are bad, and then thought better of it.

$15 i will download ilegally from anywere

@Moose: You must have found a secret ending or something then, that’s not what I got. <_<

Christ, people in Western society spend so much money on mountain upon mountain of utter shit and yet they won’t spend $15 on a ridiculously polished and well-designed game? As far as I can tell, most people spend more than two or three hours on it. It’s mainly just the wunderkinds who manage less. Besides, Portal was also incredibly short, and anyway, quality over quantity.

What else could you buy for $15? That’ll buy you maybe 5 hours out at some nightclub you won’t remember in the morning and an evil hangover that stretches over the following day. Most people do that at least once a week. VVVVVV, on the other hand, is a unique and new experience.

For those of you in the American suburbs, maybe just give up the car drives to the nearest shopping complex for a week and walk it instead. You’ll be healthier, you’ll be polluting less, and you’ll save a tonne of money you can use to buy this game. Sorted.

Also, tea, why say that you’re going to download it illegally, or that you could? Nobody cares about your plans. Everybody knows it’s possible. Why bother posting it?

Also, I realise that my post above isn’t particularly coherently organised, but I’m in a hurry to get out of the house.

Why is this game getting so much hype? The precision-based gameplay thing looks? like it would get old pretty fast, and the graphics are functional at best.

I would never try to convince somebody they shouldn’t have fun playing something. But if someone says that a bad game is actually a good game–or vice versa–then it’s perfectly reasonable for me to make a case otherwise.

“I like it” or “I had fun playing it” does not mean “it’s good.” I’ve had fun playing lots of bad games–there’s nothing wrong with that, but I’m prepared to admit that they’re bad games.

To my regret, I followed your advice and read pyrrhuloxia’s second wall of text.

All you need to know about pyrrhuloxia is that they wrote this sentence:

>It’s interesting how you feel such affection for a game that hurts you.

He or she acts like VVVVVV is the first game that has such a paradox at it’s heart, whereas in the real world almost all single-player video games have that element of challenge-seeking/masochism present in some form or another. It’s like you started a review of a movie with “It’s interesting how much affection people have for films in which bad things happen to characters the audience cares about.” Whether born of naivete or disingenuousness, there’s no point reading further once you read a sentence like that in a review of a particular film.

Just tried the demo. Some comments made me badly disposed towards VVVVVV even before playing it – I mean the over-positive ones. Anyway, if the demo serves the purpose to convince of the game’s quality, it succeeds. Lovely graphics, great soundtrack, good level design, fun gameplay. Several passages are not difficult, just frustrating, but the abundant checkpoints come to compensante.

Still, I find $15 really too much for a little game that lasts less than three hours (as reported by many) and whose gameplay mechanic risks becoming a tiresome gimmick on the “long” run – the last part of the second demo level seemed to drag on too much already. I’ll take it into better consideration when the price drops.

So, I really cannot understand why some people salute this as the coming of the new Messiah – not that it hasn’t happened with other games here. It deserves praise (and I’m glad Cavanagh showed he’s good at making “real” games too!), but not of the type that makes me doubt if the enthusiasm is sincere, or rather part of the rising tendence to aggrandizement I feel in the indie community.

@corpus

nice post, you are angry… so:

“Nobody cares about your plans. Everybody knows it’s possible. Why bother posting it?”

direct quote from a great man

I really wish people would stop saying that challenging yourself == masochism. People enjoy a challenge and being dominated for completely different reasons.

JJJJJJ is right. Apologies.

Actually, I’d like to retract my previous comment on this game; I had only preemptively judged it from watching gameplay videos of it being played in specific areas. After playing the demo, I can see that this is a good indie game that is deserving of some attention.

“VVVVVV, on the other hand, is a unique and new experience.”

…No, not really. Well, new is subjective I suppose. But it’s only unique in the sense that it is VVVVVV and there is no other game that is VVVVVV, but certainly there are plenty that are *like* it.

Why do so many people who like the game complain about the price? $15 is pretty cheap for a game.
And why is length so important anyway?

Damn right!

To be honest, it’s extremely rare for me to find an indie game that will get me properly excited about wanting to play it, but this one really pushed my buttons.

To the detractors, it’s tempting to say, hey, obviously SOME people can’t tell the difference between brilliantly simple design and the usual mediocrity. Just as some people don’t seem to notice the difference between really stylish, beautiful retro graphics and the usual retro graphics.

But never mind. Playing this made me feel happy. Most other games do not. If you don’t get it that’s cool, but please don’t assume there’s nothing there to get.

JJJJJJ, I got the first ending for rescuing the crew. I then got told to “explore the dimension and try to find something that might save it”, did so, found a particular new area, in which one of my crewmates casually remarked “with this research and ours we’re saved”. Which.. seemed to be it. Is that it?

corpus, consider for the price that you can buy Torchlight or even Shattered Horizon for just as much (if not cheaper, as they’re sometimes on sale on Steam).

Both games are 3D, have tons of replay value (Toruchlight has procedurally generated dungeons). The former runs on any computer, even netbooks (while someone mentioned having trouble running THIS game on a P4, which is crazy).

Also compare it to other platform games, most of which are free. Such as Cave Story, La Mulana or Lyle in Cube Sector.

The price of this game is pretty improportionate for what it is. Paying $15 for a small 3MB platform game doesn’t make sense when you can get games of this size or length for free. And for $15 can buy something that actually has 3D or even multiplayer.

I understand that a lot of people here are good buddies with the guy who made this game. But then again, you are also probably the only ones who will buy it for that reason, to support the developer just because of who he is.

The hard truth is that anyone else will compare it to what else they can buy for the price. Selling the developer isn’t exactly the greatest marketing tool if only a few people even know who he is.

@Moose: If that was supposed to be a description of finding the secret lab, then yes. Though, what you describe is different from what I experienced. You don’t see a trophy room, or the gravitron?

found it on piratebay and finished it in 1:47 hours!!

excelent game :D

…I think I just realised why this is called VVVVVV.

@Slow:

I think it’s for 2 reasons, first and foremost: spikes!

Secondly, the 6 main characters names, but I think that’s just a secondary thing.

Anyway, played it, beat it in less than 2 hours, can’t imagine paying more than $5 for it. The music is the best aspect of the game, for sure, if you can still stomach chiptunes at this point.

Really, short flash platformer. We have lots of those for free.

“Such as Cave Story, La Mulana or Lyle in Cube Sector.”

I already played CS, I was waiting for the Wii port of La Mulana, and I’ll probably check out LiCS. But I don’t see why that would make me regret buying VVVVVV.

“The hard truth is that anyone else will compare it to what else they can buy for the price.”

That’s kind of silly, though. That makes it sound like the limiting factor to the games you play is the _price_ of the game, rather than the _time_ you spend playing them. Even if you had no interest in time-trials and it only took you three hours to get all the trinkets and explore the map in VVVVVV, then assuming you were capable of working mininimum wage in the USA for that amount of time you’d make enough to buy two VVVVVV pre-orders.

Video games are a time-expensive, not money-expensive habit. If you can’t afford the monetary cost, you *definitely* can’t afford the time cost, assuming your time has value.

Alright, enough, here’s the solution. You were going to go out and spend $15 dollars on McDonalds this weekend anyway – which will just make you feel like shit for at least two hours or more. Instead, do yourself a favor and buy this game because it’s healthier for you and it’ll make you feel good for 2 hours or more.

There, we done now? :)

Yeah, I don’t understand how some people can comparison shop for games like they’re cars.

If you have only $15 to spend and you want to pick the most entertaining game, that’s understandable. It’s also understandable to say “this game is not worth $15″.

But to have the money, want to play it, but not buy it because another game with 3d graphics costs the same boggles me. I had more fun, pound-for-pound, with VVVVVV than I did Torchlight. And it took up less of my time, which is great.

VVVVVV is like one delicious-ass snack – Torchlight was like eating white bread for days on end…

PENIS

well sayed

halberd: “you can buy Torchlight or even Shattered Horizon for just as much (if not cheaper, as they’re sometimes on sale on Steam)”

Figured it was worth mentioning that the “just as much” part is actually false for the standard pricing; Torchlight and Shattered Horizon are both $20, while VVVVVV is only $15.

That said I don’t understand the comparison shopping thing either, really. But I’m not one to make impulse buys, or go in saying “I want to spend this much”. I go in saying “I want to buy this game”, and I don’t want to buy VVVVVV.

Actually, it could be free and I still wouldn’t play it any farther than the content offered in the demo. The game is just downright frustrating to me, too much so to be fun.

@halberd

Well, that’s a nice theory, based on postulation and assumption, and it ultimately signifies nothing at all.

After all, only a fool speaks as though they were the masses, because such an argument is transparently fallacious. Each person is going to have their own motivations, and to paint any group of people with a brush is foolish. And it shows a person with a very black & white small world view. Picket fences and all that.

The truth is that every individual is as different as can be from the next, this is thanks to the very wiring of the brain differing from person to person (to put it in lay terms).

So you can’t really speak for two people, let alone the undefined amount that have forked over their cash.

I didn’t really know Terry before VVVVVV. I think I’d seen his names on the forums, but he was still an unknown quantity in my personal perception of the Wrold. I wasn’t excited about VVVVVVV at first either, as the screenshots didn’t give me the Jet Set Willy vibe I got from the video.

The aforementioned video resulted in a raised eyebrow and piqued curiosity.

Then I played the the demo…

The demo was this glorious thing. There was no padding, it was just pure, undiluted gaming fun. It was fun without being punishing, it encouraged me to explore and experiment. It held my hand as I made a billion death leaps.

And it was patient, it held my hand, and it was comforting in that it never made me replay sections of the game. It didn’t have lives, it didn’t have a score that was lessened by deaths. And the only difficulty was teaching my body to play the game.

In that way, it was like learning to dance and having the most patient and caring dancing tutor one could hope for. It’s an odd metaphor, but it fits the game. It’s something difficult, but it’s also something incredibly fun, and the game itself encourages you to be better at it.

And when you get better at it, there’s this tangible feeling of satisfaction, elation, and not at all tempered jubilation which is only exemplified by the heroics of the Captain.

And all that I got from the demo.

After playing a demo that stirred such feelings in me and made me feel so good, after having experienced something so completely enjoyable, how could I not want the full experience?

In my case, the merits of the game alone, no hype, without any knowledge of Terry, or anything else… by just the demo alone, I decided to buy the game.

So I’m the exception that disproves that rule. :p

This game, to me, doesn’t feel like it’s worth $15. Not to say it isn’t good (it is) but this is the same price as World of Goo, Braid, Aquaria, etc (actually, in some cases, more expensive) and I simply don’t feel that this game is up to those standards. I don’t feel that I will get $15 dollars worth of fun out of it. Maybe $5 or $10, but not $15. And that’s just me.

this is the same price as World of Goo, Braid, Aquaria, etc

No, no it isn’t. How quickly people forget launch prices!

Shrug, well I enjoyed the demo more than World of Goo, Braid or Aquaria. It may be simple, it may be less ambitious, but I still had more fun.

Spelunky may be better, and Spelunky is free, but such things are rare.

But if you want to make these kinds of value judgement, why play indie games at all? For a little bit more, you can buy games with multi-million dollar budgets. You know, if that’s the kind of value you’re looking for.

Cleared the game over at friend’s place : DDD

If I feel like replaying it (which I definitely might! ‘ 0 ‘) I could definitely fork out 150 for it.

But to be perfectly honest had it been priced at .. no nevermind actually it’s just worth it, haha.

Aaand with this I’m just trying to add that I think this game has replay value. I cleared it in <2 hours but I’ve spent more than 3 hours with it. And sorta like Derek pointed out, had more fun with it than torchlight :D

Derek, what is an “ass snack”?

(kidding)

Ooh, listen to me everybody. I’m a gamer so my opinions matter. I will spend oodles on an Alienware PC and a fast internet connection but I cringe at paying $15 once to a talented indie developer in return for hours of fun. Sure, he worked for it, but I want to rip him off, cos I’m such a cool gamer person and though i haven’t written a game in my life I know exactly how much it should cost. I’m so cool that when World of Goo did that pay-as-much-as-you-like deal I paid the minimum (.25c wasn’t it?) and still b-tched about it. That’s how freaking cool I am.

I bet this game isn’t as good or bad as everybody says it is!

Platformer! It’s a platformer! :D

Hardcoregamer, I respectfully disagree. Though neither of us are huge fans of this game, our opinions are not the same. I’m not a fan of frustration platformers as they are generally quite shallow, and this game really is no exception. There’s shit made over fifteen years ago with more depth than this (as you likely know, being a hardcore gamer). It’s by no means the worst game ever, and I can understand if some people would like to support the developer (though I have never liked any of his games). But I’m sure that anyone who cares enough to insult people who don’t buy this game on the grounds that their buddy Terry isn’t getting more money would refrain from insulting those like me or even people like you, in favor of just donating another fifteen bucks to the guy for chrissakes.

I really can’t keep this charade up. I’m trying to be alright today and not argue every last one of you raving about this game like it’s the second coming into a fine pulp(as well as many others of you who are merely spouting the usual goofballery, acting like buying this shit is some kind of inescapable logical conclusion). As I said, I don’t give two craps about this game and I don’t feel like talking about it. But sometimes I look on here and you guys are just BEGGING for it. Like The Vagrant Werewolf up there. Talk about low hanging fruit – it’s like the whole tree has split in half.

Maybe if this many people say that 15 dollars is a ridiculous price, well, maybe it is. Maybe you ought to take notes. Even indie devs have to satisfy an audience.

>But I’m sure that anyone who cares enough to insult people who don’t buy this game on the grounds that their buddy Terry isn’t getting more money would refrain from insulting those like me or even people like you, in favor of just donating another fifteen bucks to the guy for chrissakes.

>(as well as many others of you who are merely spouting the usual goofballery, acting like buying this shit is some kind of inescapable logical conclusion).

Derek said up above _”If you have only $15 to spend and you want to pick the most entertaining game, that’s understandable. It’s also understandable to say ‘this game is not worth $15′.”_

I don’t see anyone disagreeing with him.

But you and others above seem to be saying that the only reason to get this is to “support the developer”, as though there’s something irrational about playing a demo, wanting to experience more of it, and paying $15 to do so.

So if you’re gonna argue us to a fine pulp, you could at least argue against what we actually said…

I really dug Torchlight though.

What a lot of people (as in all those who’ve played the game and never visited the forums, which is probably 99 per cent of the people here, including Derek Yu) are missing is that Torchlight can be modded, and some of the mods are absolutely brilliant and add content to the game that’s genuinely fun, even more fun than what was originally there. Whether it’s a Gauntlet run, a puzzle dungeon, or a dungeon that entices you with switches out of reach and encourages you to explore.

And the modding community is getting better by the day, fixing things, adding things, reworking things, and making the game even more brilliant than it originally was.

In fact, the modding community have been pushing for inclusions into Torchlight so that they can mod harder (I know, better, but that sounded a bit funnier). And some of the mods in development look breathtaking.

Most of what makes Torchlight brilliant is the modding community and their additions to the game. If you’re missing that then you’re missing 80 per cent of what you paid for when you bought the game.

And really? More fool you.

I love VVVVVV, I love Torchlight, and I’m going to be controversial and say that I thought VVVVVV and Torchlight were equal in my heart, and that both were far superior to Braid, since Braid tended to get bogged down in its own pretention. Problem with Braid is that it had clever game mechanics, and it was fun, but it would’ve worked better with a simplistic, minimalistic aesthetic and no pretention. Blow generally tends to use pretty words more like a politician than a poet, so the end result is like listening to a Priest rather than the cream of the crop of Irish bards.

That took away from Braid, for me, since Blow just really doesn’t have the mindset for it and I found it grating.

@Anarkex,

The Second coming??? People who speak like that are usually full of tripe. Nobody here has said that VVVVVV is the second coming, and you stating that as if someone has stated it that way just makes you look foolish.

@Everyone,

I think there are some people who are intentionally trying to stir shit up by being negative about the game. In general whether people like the game or not, there are a lot of discussions going on right now only generating more interest and popularity for VVVVVV the game and Terry Cavanagh. I really hope Terry is able to make a living at this and will be able to churn out more great games in the future because of VVVVVV’s success.

I think it’s really cool that he was able to give up some stability in order to follow his dream. I think any negative backlash is *mostly* due to people being either envious or jealous, while the un-silent minority just don’t have anything better to do than rain on everyone’s parade (those of us that enjoy the game).

If you have a criticism, great! Be constructive about it. Show some thought and imagination. Try to articulate without being an ass or getting personal.

Just to be fair I’ll start. I don’t want to put anyone down, but please allow me to enjoy my game that I’ve paid for with my money. However, If you’ve made any games tell me which games you’ve made! I’ll try them out. If you have a commercial game (shareware or the like) I may even buy it if I liked your other games. Understand where I’m going with this?

VVVVVV has been more fun than frustrating and has even made me laugh out loud a couple of times simply because I died 20 times at one measly section when I know I could’ve done better. My time and money has been well spent on the enjoyment. Terry has to make a living, I appreciate that and I also wish that I had the gumption to follow my dreams as well. At the very least, Terry makes the thought of it possible – and if/when he pulls it off it’ll make for one hell of a story!

Thanks again Terry!

Consumatopia, man, I just don’t even care. I haven’t slept all night, and I lost all drive to work out a suitable response. Of course I’m not going to argue with EVERYONE here, because I agree with some people. Including Derek. It’s stupid to not buy a game you want at a price you don’t mind just because there are other games at lower prices. Doesn’t that go without saying? I was responding directly to “Hardcoregamer”, which in hindsight, probably means I been trolled. Whatever. I guess I’ll try to sleep again now. Sorry I made you type all that. I guess there’s really nothing to even argue here.

Hey if $15 is such a reasonable price, how come everybody in the whole world who’s heard of it hasn’t bought it already?!?!? People has to be allowed to say they think it’s a bit expensive.

I definitely want to try VVVVVV out but $15 plus tax is more than I want to pay for something like this. Then again I never buy games, except that time when I donated $5 to Cactus to get to see his Gamma IV game.

It seems like everyone who has written multiparagraph responses supporting the game keep going back to how talented Terry is and how much success Terry will have. That sounds like you’re just supporting the developer. And Anarkex is right, while reading through this whole page I got the impression that the game/Terry is being heralded as the second coming

@JJJJJJ, I saw the other things in the Secret Lab, but the only thing actually relevant to the plot appeared to be that single speech bubble, which was a bit disappointing. (If you go back to the ship after hearing that, the crewman there even still says that the dimension is in danger of collapsing.)

And while I’m not upset at spending $15, I think he has dropped a bit of a clanger by marketing the demo through Kongregate where it is right next to Meat Boy, Shift, etc. At least, he could have made the full version available for kreds, which would tie it into their achievement and leaderboards system too (great for the time trials).

I’m confused

The people arguing against the game and its pricing are being more or less reasonable

The people expressing their like for this game also sound pretty reasonable

What are we arguing about

Also I think it’s fun how some guy or two have been commenting on the ‘haters’ in the TimW comment section, where the ‘haters’ was one guy who wrote two walls of texts explaining why he felt emotionally hurt by the game and thus couldn’t comprehend other peoples like for it – and then like 4 one-liner 4chan troll remarks about ‘shit sux’

Not a huge load of hating there

So much overinterpretation in all directions. One crazy guy and 4 trolls? OMG HATING!

‘Terry is an amazingly talented developer and his game is worth the money’ <- PROCLAIMING THE SECOND COMING

‘I really don’t think this game is worth 15 bucks, and the art style looks unpolished and bland’ <- OH YOU HATER JUST GO AWAY ARGH

Iii find it fun how everyone is reasonable yet arguing about points barely being made

But I guess most of you guys are seeing that too

and this comment is pointless but that’s how I like my internet, pointless and full of emotion

Also 15$ on this game or 15$ at McDonalds or the cinema? What a weak argument. How about 15$ for a game that takes 1~2 hours with little-to-no replay value, or watch a movie(which btw, the cinema only costs 7$ per person here) that takes 2~4 hours with little-to-no rewatch value? Or how about 15$ for a game that takes 1~2 hours with little-to-no replay value, or 15$ worth of beer hanging out with friends for a couple of hours that brings you closer as a group?

If this gets enough sales, hopefully Matt Thorton will make Jumper 4 cost 15$. Now he is a talented guy that has a number of successful games under his belt, and I can see him getting away with this.

Man, who spends $15 at McDonald’s? Haven’t you guys ever heard of the Dollar Menu?

> It’s stupid to not buy a game you want at a price you don’t mind just because there are other games at lower prices. Doesn’t that go without saying?

You’d think so, but if you scroll up there’s a lot of comparisons to cheaper games.

> I was responding directly to “Hardcoregamer”, which in hindsight, probably means I been trolled.

You used strangely many plural nouns in your post to be referring to one person.

> How about 15$ for a game that takes 1~2 hours **with little-to-no replay value**

Sorry, you have the wrong thread, here we’re talking about VVVVVV.

“And while I’m not upset at spending $15, I think he has dropped a bit of a clanger by marketing the demo through Kongregate where it is right next to Meat Boy, Shift, etc.”

I dunno, I think this game is far more enjoyable than Meat Boy, for example. To me at least. It’s the crucial division between “yes, I want to play more of this” and “well, not really”.

And I have no idea who the developer is. I just thought this game was cool.

“or 15$ worth of beer hanging out with friends for a couple of hours that brings you closer as a group?”

me and surely most of people here has NO FRIENDS, we are gamers you moron!

btw… the game is awesome (too many empty spaces for my taste, but that’s ok), the price is high, end of story

a horribly hard platformer with bad graphics? This is indie people.

“It’s stupid to not buy a game you want at a price you don’t mind just because there are other games at lower prices. Doesn’t that go without saying?”

Competition. Basic marketing strategy 101. People sell products at a certain price, and others try to sell their product at an even better price. That’s how the free market works. Granted, this is Terry’s first game so I’ll cut him some slack.

But if you have a low resolution 2D platform game that is only 2 hours long priced at the same price point as games with 3D, multiplayer, and twice the amount of gameplay then I don’t really see how the reaction is surprising.

Zero Gear is now $15, I’m thinking of getting that instead. Any reason I should get this game over ZG? $15 for a 2-3 hour 2D game doesn’t seem like a good deal to me.

@tokugawa

Who said that “3d” is better than “2d”?
(Is Avatar better than Empire Strikes Back?)

Who said games with multiplayer are better than games without?

I’ve played tonnes of games where the multiplayer is some tacked-on crap just for the sake of an extra “bullet point” on the back of the box.

I’m well aware of competition/pricing theory. But you seem to be equating the ‘value’ of an indiegame with ‘the number of bullet points on the box’, whereas I equate ‘value’ with ‘fun’.

>Zero Gear is now $15, I’m thinking of getting that instead. Any reason I should get this game over ZG?

Who the fuck knows? Why not check them both out and see which one you prefer? Do you need someone to tell you what kind of music taste you have as well?

Jesus Shitting Christ, if you’re as stupid in RL as you pretend to be online then you’re fucking doomed.

@Jad

I actually agree.

I made a similar point over on The Independent Games Blog. And in fact, the only people I’ve been irked at are those who’ve made implications that someone who’d drop $15 on a game they love isn’t too bright, or that those who purchased the game must be in the developer’s pants.

I was actually amazed by the mob mentality regarding one person, and how one person was treated as though they were an Army of Vile Evil (That Happens to be Vile). I don’t get why there’s any need for an argument unless there are insults or some basely derogatory insinuations going around.

And if that’s the case, pick someone up on being boorish and churlish, and don’t attack them for their negative opinion, just for portraying it in the worst way possible.

Mob mentality in regards to a negative comment because it’s negative (rather than because it contains insults) just makes the group look bad because it comes over as mob mentality. Pitchforks, torches, and a hell of a lot of shouting which signifies nothing.

But “pitchforks, torches, and a hell of a lot of shouting that signifies nothing” is a pretty good description of the Internet as a whole. Same point you made at the end of your post.

>.>

I doubt that’s going to change any time soon.

VVVVVV is great.

Some bloke is a rude git.

Not everyone can like everything.

Some people have different estimations of value.

And that’s that!

> Do you need someone to tell you what kind of music taste you have as well?

Not me. Some suckers will actually pay $.99 for an iTunes mp3 of a dude playing **guitar** for 4 minutes. Fuck that noise. If I click on a classical music internet stream, I could hear entire ORCHESTRAS playing music for as long as I want FOR FREE!

The attention this game is getting is awesome! There’s no such thing as good PR or bad PR… unless you’re a Scientologist.

Down with Hitler!

Engleburt Humperdink rocks!

:)))

And now more noise from the Twilight Zone

this really isn’t a good value for the money. why are people so defensive about that?

For thos who are too poor to afford paying indie games, you can always play games on your C64 emulator
XD

The experience is identical

nice strawman bro

Out of curiosity, is the music included with the game in a universally playable format? (e.g. wav, mp3, etc.)

No, you have to buy that as well. Search for “PPPPPP – The VVVVVV Soundtrack” on Google.

Oh, that’s pretty lame. I was thinking the price point would be a lot better if they were in there.

On the other hand, at least I can get the music cheaper than having to buy the entire game this way.

Thanks for the info hajile!

> this really isn’t a good value for the money **to me**.

There, I fixed it to what you would have typed if you were thinking clearly.

From now on, I’m going to buy my music the same way some of you buy your games. I’m going for the most minutes per dollar. The longer the $10 album, the more worth my money it is, right?

Ooh! And I want the [i]biggest[/i] clothes I can find for the least amount of money! And I’ll choose my books based on word count and my board games based on how long a game lasts!

And my comment thread by the number comments!

There *is* a difference between discussing the value of the game and actually making a purchase based on that value, you know.

If you like a game and have money to buy it with then by all means, go for it. That doesn’t mean it’s a good value.

If you want to buy pants that don’t fit you or a long album of music you hate, then by all means do that too! Just don’t complain about it.

If you want to insult people for something they’re doing, make sure they’re actually doing it first.

Yeah, $15 for this is a rip off, $5 and we may have a deal. It just strikes me as just another flash game…

Why didn’t he charge $9.99 and save himself the entire price discussion? (+ potentially double the sales)

Any price other than free would have caused a bunch of moaning, I guarantee it.

@Anthony Flack,

Agreed!

Now, how about this, lets get this comment section fixed so that people IP addresses are shown so we know which moaner are posting under more than one name and even replying to themselves (pathetic). Oh and lets secure it so that comments from a proxy can’t be made. :)

This would have been a much shorter discussion I wager, though no less pointless.

Why does foolishness always lead to a bigger discussion than necessary?

This problem is answered easily in two parts:

1.) I (and everyone else who enjoys the full game) bought the game and have no regrets buying the game, and only want to continue enjoying the game in peace. We will recommend the game to others, but that is because we like the game and have actually played it.

2.) You (the people who don’t like the game) do not have to pay a dime for it. Nobody is forcing you to buy this game. When someone does put a gun to your head and forces you to by this game, you can rest assured that I will comment negatively towards your assailant. If you have tried the demo and still don’t like it, by all means, say you didn’t like the demo. Since you’re not going to buy the game there’s really no further need for discussion.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I have a few more shiny things to obtain! (That sounded like something The Cat from Red Dwarf would say).

> There *is* a difference between discussing the value of the game and actually making a purchase based on that value, you know.

Stop saying “the value of the game” like it’s an actual quantity. It’s worth different things to different people, depending on their preferences and opportunity costs. Next time you say “the value of the game”, please append ” to me”. Thank you.

Anthony Flack Said.. But if you want to make these kinds of value judgement, why play indie games at all? For a little bit more, you can buy games with multi-million dollar budgets. You know, if that’s the kind of value you’re looking for.

What? I play indie games because I like them, and the community around them. I don’t like (most) of the games put out by sony or nintendo or w/e. I don’t own any of those consoles or buy any of those games. I’m content buying games that indie developers create, or playing free ones (..or making my own). However, I don’t feel that this particular indie game is worth $15, because I don’t think I’ll get $15 dollars worth of fun out of it, like I did with other indie games for around the same price.

That’s just my opinion.

Guys, I have an opinion.

I bought the game and enjoyed it, but I was disappointed in the, shall we say, lack of length. Two hours and twenty shinies in, my final impression was “That’s it?”. Just as the game was really hitting its stride… it was out of content. It really detracted from what was otherwise a great experience. The $15 I had just shelled out, which retroactively felt somewhat “wasted”, certainly didn’t help things.

Music isn’t really a good analogy. When you buy music, you are usually buying it because of who it’s made by. It makes perfect sense to buy an album from your favorite band.

Games aren’t like that at all. In fact, buying games just because it’s made by a certain person is usually a bad idea. Daikatana is made by John Romero, one of the guys who worked on Doom. However, it’s still a horrible game.

Games are very multifaceted. They contain more than just music. You can easily judge music based on, say if it’s made by a talented singer or musician.

But games on the other hand have many other factors to consider. Things like replay value, accessiblilty/difficulty, and even, yes, graphics or gameplay.

And it’s only natural for people to consider these things before dropping money on a game that they may not even end up enjoying.

Another reason why people bring up file size a lot, or the length of a game is because with games, you never exactly know what you’re getting. Reading comments about length (or in other cases, reviews) gives people some idea of to expect.

You can easily just pop in a music CD and listen to it.

You can’t just pop in a game and have it play itself.

hajile thats why you go and play the game then

Yes, then what? With games, you don’t know what to expect. A game could start out good then end abruptly. Or it could end up being too hard for you and you may not finish it.

Music doesn’t have those kinds of factors to consider. You can usually judge music based on who it’s made by.

Like bollocks you can. You take a risk every time you buy something new. Fortunately, sometimes it’s only a few dollars at stake.

I love how so many people claim that value-shopping a video game is pointless, yet these are the same people claiming, “You’re going to waste 15 bucks anyways, why not buy a good game!”

Piss off. We don’t have to like your overpriced game’s price just because you’re fine with it. God.

Note to self: After creating my first commercial game, price it at $15,000.

Anthony: But games are even bigger of a risk due to all the various factors involved. With music you know what you’re getting, and if you don’t, there are ways to, say, preview certain songs to see if you like them. With a game, the most you can do is can preview the first few minutes of a demo at best, and that hardly is any indication of what the entire game is like.

Either way, just as you would research to see if a music CD has the songs you wish to hear, it makes sense for people to read reviews or comments on games to see if the full game is going to be worth their money.

There really is no excuse for anyone to not buy this. It doesn’t matter whether you play indie games or not. If you are not telling your friends, family, and those around you to buy this, then get the fuck off of this website. Why bother being in a place where nobody wants you around?

Terry deserves our money, all of it. The man quit his job, you cannot even fathom what he’s been through. Have you quit YOUR job? You probably wouldn’t even have the guts to.

I have no sympathy to anyone who doesn’t buy this game. Just today, I blocked about half my friends (ex-friends now) on AIM for telling me that the game was “too expensive” (give me a break). That’s how serious I am, and how tired I am of this fucking ignorance.

If you’re still reading this and haven’t bought this yet, please fuck off and die somewhere. The world will do better with one less worthless, heartless peice of shit around. And above all, I hope Terry gains the success and fortune he obviously deserves.

Anyone who thinks this game is a waste of $15 is an out-and-out fool. This is a truly terrific platformer with a lot more to do than just play through the two hours worth of game and collect all twenty trinkets. Plenty of achievements and extra modes to keep us all occupied in Terry’s world of topsy-turvy platforming goodness and SoulEye’s ear-poppingly fantastic soundtrack.

Seriously, awesome job, Mr. Cavanagh. This is one terrific game. I can’t recommend it highly enough to those who love their platformers old-school not only in style and sound but in difficulty. If $15 is too much to ask to support an awesome developer like Terry then feel free to pass on one hell of a great gaming experience.

There really is no excuse for anyone to not buy this. It doesn’t matter whether you play indie games or not. If you are not telling your friends, family, and those around you to buy this, then get the fuck off of this website. Why bother being in a place where nobody wants you around?

Terry deserves our money, all of it. The man quit his job, you cannot even fathom what he’s been through. Have you quit YOUR job? You probably wouldn’t even have the guts to.

I have no sympathy to anyone who doesn’t buy this game. Just today, I blocked about half my friends (ex-friends now) on AIM for telling me that the game was “too expensive” (give me a break). That’s how serious I am, and how tired I am of this fucking ignorance.

If you’re still reading this and haven’t bought this yet, please fuck off and die somewhere. The world will do better with one less worthless, heartless piece of shit around. And above all, I hope Terry gains the success and fortune he obviously deserves.

In short, fuck the haters. Pieces of shit would rather see such a poor guy suffer just so they can play “other games” (oh boo hoo, give me a break). Stop being a stingy fuck for once and fork over $15, and everyone you know to do the same. It’s only what $15? You won’t go bankrupt, you freakin dumbasses.

Okay, make me then. What, are you going to punch me over the internet if I don’t buy it?

hajile please get the fuck off this website

This is a really good game, enjoying it so far.

ness just leveled up.

@Burnside,

You didn’t buy the damn game. Obviously you haven’t even been reading the comments left here by people who did buy the game. You just caught yourself in a lie.

*”I bought the game and enjoyed it, but I was disappointed in the, shall we say, lack of length. Two hours and twenty shinies in, my final impression was “That’s it?”. Just as the game was really hitting its stride… it was out of content. It really detracted from what was otherwise a great experience.”*

Sorry buddy, but that’s a crock and you’d know it if you actually had the full game. Next time think a little before you share your “opinion”, or just be honest, at least that way I can be understanding if you do have a real opinion.

BTW,

I’m happy I bought VVVVVV, and I still like Meat Boy too. That’s why I’m going to *Buy* the game (Super Meat Boy) for the Wii when it comes out. Because it will no longer be free then. So I’m going to buy it, as in, I’m going to spend money on it. Probably $10 – $15 dollars. Because that’s a not a lot of money compared to spending $50 – $60 dollars on one mainstream game, I can get 3 – 4 indie games for that price, and not have to feel guilty. :-)

So ya, I’m going to be spending more money on another indie game in the not-so-distant future. I can’t wait to hear people bitch about that as well. Edmund is another great Indie Dev. What better way to support these guys, from Derek Yu to Jonathan Blow, Anthony Flack to Paul Eres, Terry Cavanagh to Edmund McMillen, Alec Holowka to Phil Fish, Cactus to Petri Purho, and the dozens of others known around the community, and then the hundreds that are still unknown.

None of these guys are asking that you give up your soul, nor are they asking for your first born. I’m pretty sure most of them just want to make fun games that people can enjoy – and if possible, most of them would like to make a living at it in some way.

Just waiting for Cactus’ big commercial release… which will probably be called something like “foot and underarm odor” – or something crazy like that… we can only hope. :-)

Seriously though, as silly as this discussion has become, it’s a great start to the New Year and only making guys like Terry Cavanagh and his games more popular. At least something positive is coming from the disagreements and silly arguing. I guess for every valid point there has to be an equal amount of unthoughtful comments, otherwise those people with nothing better to do might feel lonely, and that’s a shame. I guess it’s fair then that those people who do want to be completely negative have their chance because it’s probably better that they vent it out in places like this rather than be alone and hurt themselves. So maybe two positives can come from this sort of thing…

>> Because that’s a not a lot of money compared to spending $50 – $60 dollars on one mainstream game, I can get 3 – 4 indie games for that price, and not have to feel guilty.

Are you saying you would feel guilty for buying a “mainstream” game?

Well I guess there was a smily so never mind. Sorry for the double post.

Drazzke and Burnside have perfectly reasonable opinions and made perfectly reasonable posts. It makes sense to say “this game should have been longer” (not everyone will agree, I personally like the lack of filler, but either opinion is sensible) or “I’m not willing to pay $15 for a game this short”. Indeed, it is a good thing that people are commenting on the length of the game, because that’s something people should know before they buy it.

That’s completely unlike most of the other comments bashing the game who are trying to bring back some kind of Adam Smith-era “natural price” theory, where they get to decide how much it’s rational for **me** to pay for a game, like they’re on the Soviet Union’s Central Planning committee or something.

But even those fools make more sense than hajile’s music crap…yeah, just like music, good musicians can phone in crap, so you play a demo, watch a video, read reviews and comments, listen to recommendations from your friends. The music analogy makes perfect sense.

bought this one, the price absolutely ok. it’s a quality game, so why don’t pay what the developer deserves?

i thing this price discussion is good marketing !

I find it fascinating how much attention this game has gathered, despite not being anything special. Its not really innovative, controversial, or otherwise extraordinary. Its neither brilliant nor exceptionally bad. The price point might be considered high, but there are plenty overpriced games out there.

on the real, and all dickwaving aside, how long did ‘veni vidi vici’ take you? i fully completed this game in two hours, with around 850 deaths, and nearly 200 of those deaths came from veni vidi vici, which i think presents kind of a disproportion compared to the relative ease of the rest of the game.

surely i’m not the only one who feels there’s a lot of padding going on here, what with half of the world map consisting of empty or near empty rooms, and of course, the gravitron being another time sink.

additionally, with levels like ‘edge games,’ am i the only one to think that the difficulty is artificially induced by the fact that the level ‘wraps’ around what would otherwise be the center of action? likewise, there are many other rooms where the only real difficulty comes from having to estimate your position as you wrap.

i’m not saying that time of play should be the sole measure of the worth of a game, but it did bother me how much the game tried to waste your time, and how little a lot of the game mechanics evolved from what was shown in the demos (i.e. using the gravity reversal ‘lines’ in the same three ways, slightly reconfigured, over and over.)

“rewarding the reckless” or whatever it was was a really, really clever puzzle, but i really wish there was a lot more of that and a lot less of what we ended up getting.

Personally I think the game’s fantastic and well worth the price of admission. Perhaps less inertia-based movement would have made some areas easier, but it worked well once you got the hang of it.

I always find it so amusing when people say that because a game looks retro it’s not worth its price. You guys spend more cash on junk food and that only gives you a few minutes of enjoyment and a whole lot of clogged arteries.

But whatever, it’s not like any of these tools would ever even try to understand the ammount of work that goes into making even a small game, no matter the graphics, sounds or gameplay.

Congratulations Terry. Hope the sales are turning out well for ya. :)

So while everyone continues to have their out-and-out war with each other over the worth of their money or the value of this game I have a simple question.

After buying the game are you given an honest-to-goodness “download to your pc to play offline and not on some website”-style executable file? I’d even settle for something like Star Guard which is still Flash but actually has an .exe I can have on my system.

Yeah, there’s an .exe that you play right on your system. This makes it much easier to pirate than the leaked beta.

@Thomas,

Yes, this is a full fledged game that installs to your Hard Drive and that requires no internet connection to play (though I’d still like to see some sort of *optional* online scoreboard of sorts).

But yes, this game is all yours once you buy it. Just download, install, and play. Nothing else required. You can disable your ethernet adapter once the game has been downloaded and just play it, nothing hidden going on in the background.

So if you enjoyed the demo’s but were leery about purchasing because you thought it had to be played through a browser, worry not! This game downloads straight to your PC (or Mac) for full play, no strings attached.

@Steven,

I don’t even know if the term *”easy to pirate”* exists any more. There are far too many people with far too much time on their hands that seem to be willing to hack and crack every type of security out there whether the game be $5 dollars, or $50 dollars, it doesn’t seem to matter. It does seem that the more effort that developers put into *”securing”* their game, the more effort the pirates put into cracking and pirating it. :-/ It’s sad when it happens to the indies (I would say it’s sad about Mainstream games being pirated, but publishers such as EA – or at least their CEO’s – have no soul, so I don’t give a flying fuck about them). That still doesn’t make the act of pirating right though. Still, when it comes to indie developers, it is more frowned upon because these guys usually are one person or a small group of people trying to achieve something, the expression “little fish in a big pond” comes to mind. These guys are work horses that get paid based on each sale that they make, whereas the guys that work for large companies, developers, and publishers, make set wages and salaries. If for no other reason, hopefully less people will pirate these games made by indies especially, because of those facts and because they are in general priced fairly with far less strings attached. On top of all of this, the indie developers (the vast majority of them) take the time to listen to the audience and will also provide technical support to the best of their ability – something *YOU WILL NOT FIND* when purchasing mainstream games (in general).

@Dodger

How much of my experience should I describe before you’re convinced that I played the game through? Would you like me to tell you which three trinkets (which I called shinies last post, sorry!) I was missing when I first finished the game? How about which room I had the most deaths on at completion? (Hint: it was Edge Games.) Or I go into detail about feeling very disappointed (though I guess this was my fault) when I read here that there was some “extra content” for getting all twenty trinkets, and then I got them all and saw what the “extra content” was?

God Edge Games annoyed me. You have to figure out this arcane “you can pass through enemies at the edge of the screen if you time things *just* right” mechanic and then employ it in a fast-paced area purposefully constructed to confuse you. Even Veni Vidi Vici was straightforward. Edge Games was the only trinket I left and came back for later — despite having the most deaths on Edge Games at game completion, that was one of the three trinkets I was missing.

Of course, this is not to say that I didn’t enjoy the game. I did. I wish Mr. Cavanagh the best of luck in his endeavors as a game developer. I just also wish this game was retroactively $5 cheaper.

That’s… not how I solved the Edge Games room. I flipped to dodge the enemies, though the timing on that was still tricky, but still sounds like it was easier than the way you did it.

@dodger
“(I would say it’s sad about Mainstream games being pirated, but publishers such as EA – or at least their CEO’s – have no soul, so I don’t give a flying fuck about them).”

Wow. You remind me of a PC fanboy who said he was happy that console games piracy was rising – completely ignoring how rampant piracy is on his favourite system. Why use such double standard? You condemn piracy, or not. No exceptions.

Yeah, because EA’s CEOs are the guys who make their games, right. Sure…

@David “Gendo Ikari” Mascolo,

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. If you’re going to quote me then please try to keep the entire context of the quote. Here’s what I wrote:

*”It’s sad when it happens to the indies (I would say it’s sad about Mainstream games being pirated, but publishers such as EA – or at least their CEO’s – have no soul, so I don’t give a flying fuck about them). That still doesn’t make the act of pirating right though.”*

You forgot to include that last bit *”That still doesn’t make the act of pirating right though.”* I never said that I condemn it but it’s okay if it’s done to the big guys. I said it’s wrong, I don’t have to feel as bad about it being done to the big companies because they still make shitloads of money. My point was it impacts indie developers more on a personal level.

I don’t need to pirate and that’s why I buy all these tasty indie games that I enjoy so much, but please do me a favor and don’t try to turn what I’ve said out of of key or take it out of context. Please read the whole comment or just pass it by, but please don’t misquote me by not including the full quote and it’s context, because I’ll call you on it. Hope that’s a little more understandable.

@Burnside,

The only problem I have is that you said that was all there was to the game, when it sounded like you purposefully decided to forget that once you’ve found more of the “shinies” you unlock other game modes, potentially adding more replay value than the initial 2 – 3 hours. I have no problem with how you feel about the game if you’re sincere, but saying that the game was over once you finish it the first time through with nothing left to do is misleading and untruthful.
But aside from that I don’t want to knock your opinion of the game itself, just the fact that you forgot to include that there actually was more game to be found once you do finish the main adventure.

You make it seem like people who aren’t “indie” are automatically rolling in the dough. The truth is that most people who work on big games don’t even get paid as much as you’d think. According to a recent survey on MSNBC, only 36 percent of game developers make enough to own a home.

Not to mention, they don’t work nine to five, deadlines are fierce and success isn’t always guaranteed. Plus with all the money, time, and effort that goes into making a AAA game, there is always the chance that it could just flop and hardly sell at all. And when that happens, development teams could get laid off, and all sorts of nasty thing can happen.

Hell, that’s part of the reason why some people just quit and go “indie” in the first place. They get tired of the stress that goes into working in the industry. They figure if they’re not going to make it there, what’s the risk in not making it alone. They’re either damned if they do, or damned if they don’t.

Don’t assume that just because someone works for EA that they have it easy.

*things

@ingram,

I think you need to re-read the comment. Don’t understand what’s so hard to get.

Someone mentioned that he quit his job so we should support him for his project? Fuck that, I am going to college and working and busting my ass on projects, and I doubt anyone is going to support me.

We should support it if the game is good, not by who made it or if he doesn’t have a job.

Honestly, after playing the demo, I can say that this game wouldn’t really take that much time or effort to make (especially not graphically, and the coding isn’t that difficult for something of this scale). So why should I pay $15 for a game that I could easily create at the same or better quality?

Like I said earlier, for $5, sure this is probably a good deal, anything more and I can easily toss it away and not feel like I am missing out on anything.

I’ve mentioned this elsewhere, but I’ll say this again regarding the game’s length: I’d rather have an ounce of prime cut steak over a pound of gristle anyday. This is easily the most enthralling experience I’ve had with a game in a long while; the game’s length is perfect.

I did read it. You don’t get it, do you? Piracy does hurt game developers, no matter what, even if they’re working with a company like EA. Tell me, what do you think happens when a game doesn’t sell? People lose their jobs.

You don’t feel bad just because they’re working with a company you don’t like? What kind of moronic bullshit is that? How would you like to lose your job because the game you were hired to do lost most of its sales to piracy? Hell, have you even worked in the industry before?

I can’t stand when people try to talk about things when they don’t even have the slightest idea of what they’re talking about.

@Dodger

The only *new* thing after getting all twenty trinkets is the Super-Gravitron. Everything else is just the same material presented differently: flip mode is the same game with different graphics; no death mode is the same game with a new meta-rule that doesn’t change anything; time trials are the same content, just scored now. Even the Super-Gravitron is conceptually identical to the Gravitron I played through in the main game, but since it’s not a carbon copy, in deference I’ll count it as new material. Aside from that, what have I missed?

@ingram,

no you obviously didn’t read it. I was taking a jab at EA’s CEO’s. It went over your head (and probably a few others) but you happened to respond trying to lecture me on comments I hadn’t made. It does bother me to hear that people are pirating indie developers software. I also explained why.

Now, which game was it that you developed that became so pirated you lost your job??? (And you’re implying that my comment was moronic!?!?!? wow!)

Tell me the game because really, I hadn’t heard about the game made by a large developer and publisher that was so pirated everyone working on it lost their jobs.

@burnside,

I’d consider time trials added replay value. Mainstream games get credited for their time trial modes as extra replay value, why not an indie game?

@ingram,

Before you can reply, piracy is bad for business either way. It may hurt the “industry” as a whole, but it affects the indies much more personally since the average indie doesn’t have their game on a store shelf and some don’t have a major download portal. You completely missed what I was saying otherwise you probably would have just shut up and not responded, so it’s just a misunderstanding. I just appreciate it when people read and fully understand a comment before replying to it with an attack.

@Dodger

Okay, you can stop posting now.

Enough backpedaling, etc. Thanks!

@Dodger

Okay, you can stop posting now.

Enough backpedaling, etc. Thanks!

This is now officially declared the worst comments thread on TIGS.

CONGRATURATION!!

@Mitch,

Ya you’re right.

Instead how about this – Jeff Gerstmann and team did a Quicklook of VVVVVV over at GiantBomb! Of all places! More PR for the game though.

I can’t believe all the undeserved PR this game is getting.

To reiterate:

CONGLATURATION !!!

YOU HAVE TROLLED GREATLY

AND PROOVED THE JUSTICE OF OUR CULTURE

NOW GO AND REST OUR HEROES!

the VVVVVV ruse was a………..
distaction

@d2king10
I CALL YOUR BLUFF. YOU HAVE ONE WEEK TO MAKE A SUPERIOR PRODUCT.

@Dodger

I understand your point better now, and I make my excuses for the bad quosting. I was fresh from a discussion on a forum where a lot of people made extreme mirror-climbing to justify piracy (and it was on the forum of a gaming magazine, not some warez site) so I got a bit worked up.

P.S.: it’s “Davide”. I’m Italian not italo-american :D

Since I’m somebody who DID quit their job to make games full-time, I’m sorry to report that I literally do not have $15 to spend on this (or, indeed to buy food with) right now. But I also don’t think it’s unreasonable, so I will wait, and as soon as I do have $15 to spare I will buy it. Well, okay, I’m actually waiting to buy Machinarium first, but right after that.

And again, to those that insist that this is a lot of hype for what is just another average game: sorry, but I think you are suffering from the video game equivalent of tone-deafness. If you can’t see it, that’s cool, but please stop insulting our intelligence – we didn’t all just decide to start praising some unremarkable game at random.

“Honestly, after playing the demo, I can say that this game wouldn’t really take that much time or effort to make (especially not graphically, and the coding isn’t that difficult for something of this scale). So why should I pay $15 for a game that I could easily create at the same or better quality?”

yes the graphics could have been done by any programmer. yes the coding could have have been done by any old programmer. but those aren’t the game’s distinguishing features, it’s the game design and level design that are of value here (regardless of how much value you’d place on it), not the graphics or the code. are you saying that if someone improves the code or graphics of their game, it’s worth additional money, even if the game design and levels remain exactly the same?

wow the final challenge sure was challenging!

Dodger, do you know of a game called Bionic Commando? It flopped completely. So bad that the entire development team was laid off and the company that made it (GRIN) had to close its doors.

Even in cases not as extreme as that, it’s pretty much common sense that when something doesn’t sell, something has to give in order to recuperate costs. And believe me, it’s not the CEOs who lose anything. It’s usually the little guy who loses big.

Paul Eres, actually, I would say that a game with better graphics and coding is pretty much automatically “better” than the same game with lousy graphics and coding. Of course, the most important part is the game itself, its rules, its design, et cetera, but even if the game is a complete failure in those aspects it’s still “better” when the graphics and coding are improved (note that what constitutes a graphical “improvement” is up to debate).

As for whether or not it’s worth additional money, commercial devs release their old games with updated graphics all the time and make a profit. Sounds good to me.

And a response to Anthony Flack:

Please stop insulting my intelligence by implying that I can’t identify a decent game when I play it. If you’re going to make an argument for this game’s sake, make it a better one than “lol you guys just don’t get it”. This is exactly what I was talking about before. Unless you are seriously going to tell me that video games have a magical quality aura that only some people can detect, you should be able to put some logic behind your opinion.

@ingram,

You just contradicted your own comment. I asked you which game it was that had been pirated so much that the entire dev time got fired or laid. So you’re absolutely misunderstanding my point and didn’t comprehend what I was trying to say about the “little guys” out there.

Yes I do know of Bionic Commando. Yes it was a flop mostly because the game lacked any depth and the mechanics were unfriendly to say the least. The devs got laid off? I’m sorry to hear that. That still has nothing to do with piracy though.

I personally wouldn’t pay full price for Bionic Commando after I had tried the demo out but I did pick it up for $14.97 at my local Movie Gallery. Bionic Commando Rearmed was a better game than this Next Gen Bionic Commando and to be perfectly honest, VVVVVV is a much better game than Bionic Commando in my opinion. Graphically Bionic Commando looked like it had everything but considering the gameplay mechanics were severely Fubar’d and the game world was extremely limited it only left players with a shell of a game that lead more to frustration making even the convoluted story and cutscenes not worth the time or effort.

So perhaps it’s for those reasons that Bionic Commando failed… I can’t say for sure, but I can confidently say that it’s not because it was so pirated that it put the devs and company out of business.

I don’t want to go off topic any more though, hopefully I’ve been able to explain myself in a way that’s understandable. I get what you’re trying to say, I just don’t appreciate the way you tried to make me look when you didn’t get what I was trying to say.

Paul had a very good point as well. Just because someone has the knowledge to come up with a game that is for lack of a better word – “simple”, doesn’t mean that that same person has the creativity to create an appealing game that’s both interesting and fun. Terry brought his own ideas to the game and made it something special because it hasn’t been done this way before. Just like Paul, he created Immortal Defense, it’s a tower defense game which are now a dime a dozen. Paul however, has created a unique tower defense that can’t really be compared to other Tower Defense games aside from the standard mechanics of a TD game, everything else became so interesting because of Paul’s creativity and imagination. Someone else could have put together a game that may have looked similar, but I don’t think the same person could have made the same intriguing story and elements that enhance the standard TD mechanics. It takes imagination and creativity to come up with those things and last but not least, a lot of work.

And why buy books? After all, they’re just words and anybody can write them.

“Please stop insulting my intelligence by implying that I can’t identify a decent game when I play it. If you’re going to make an argument for this game’s sake, make it a better one than “lol you guys just don’t get it”. This is exactly what I was talking about before. Unless you are seriously going to tell me that video games have a magical quality aura that only some people can detect, you should be able to put some logic behind your opinion.”

Is there any point making an argument, though? I mean, I could say for instance that I thought the graphics were not at all bad, and in fact are very stylish and evocative, nice use of colour, appealingly minimalist, lots of sly nods to 80s games, etc. But is there any point making that argument to somebody who didn’t already feel that? It’s like trying to convince somebody, with words, to appreciate a particular piece of music or combination of colours.

But I know I’m not the only person who sees it. It’s not hype, it’s a whole lot of people responding individually to a quality piece of work. And if you’re not feeling it, then, I dunno, not for you I guess.

Yeah, I agree with Anthony. Fuck logic. We should all appeal to emotion. That’s the way things ought to work.

Anthony Flack, a person can’t be “video game blind” in the same way that a person can be colorblind. A video game is a composite of many things we already are familiar with: text, graphical art, and – most importantly – rules (which exist in basically everything, not just games). Though I can’t imagine a color I can’t see, I CAN imagine a game I can’t play. We can easily criticize a game by comparing it to the ones we’ve already played, realizing where it breaks new ground or improves, as well as where it fails to present anything we haven’t seen before, better.

What you have said about the graphics is a well-constructed argument, and in the world of aesthetics in games there isn’t a whole lot more to it than that. I can say that I thought the graphics were pretty half-assed, uninspired, ugly, and occasionally even pretentious (dangers include words like “truth” and “lies”, factories, coins…ugh) and well, you wouldn’t have much to say about that besides “that’s what you think”. No matter how much I cite other games with better aesthetic design (even from as far back as the 8-bit era), I’d never really be able to prove I’m right. And it’s fine.

But the more important thing to look at here is the game’s depth and design, which we can easily evaluate. Just compare this game to similar games: in this case, platformers. Narrow it down, and we’re basically comparing it with frustration platformers. There are TONS of them out there, many of which play off of clever little elements like flipping onto the ceiling, and a lot of them are FREE and I still wouldn’t waste my time playing through them all. If you can make a decent argument how this game deviates from all that mindless drek, then we’d be cooking with gas here. As an example, “this game features a lot of exploration, so at least you can choose which tunnel you want to checkpoint-hop your way down until you get sick of it all and go play something fun.”

It’s fine if you want to chalk it up to just “that’s YOUR opinion” (it certainly is easier for me, I don’t have to type anymore), but in that case you don’t get to imply that the only reason I think differently from you is that I’m stupid and blind.

>”But I know I’m not the only person who sees it. It’s not hype, it’s a whole lot of people responding individually to a quality piece of work”

Yeah, and I’m not the only person criticizing the game either, bro. But I suppose we’re just the stupid masses and you’re the enlightened gaming master race for some reason.

oh for the love of fuck. Over 200 comments, seriously?

@junker:
“Yeah, I agree with Anthony. Fuck logic. We should all appeal to emotion. That’s the way things ought to work.”
when discussing the quality of a game, yes.

There is a difference between style and good graphics. These graphics might be stylized, but in a day and age of HD quality art, he could have gone, at the very least, a higher resolution with the game. It isn’t like he had some complex animations and sprites to make.

@d2king10,

He could have made the game look numerous different ways, instead he chose a classic C64 look. He didn’t just throw this thing together, he used what he knew. It’s like Anthony said earlier, why buy a book when anyone can write words? Good analogy.

It’s a bit like saying “why should you bother with playing an acoustic guitar in an age where a synthesizer can imitate almost anything?”

Why should he bother to make better graphics when he can get away with making the game look “old school” by spending 30 minutes on the art. Uh no, there are plenty of $15 games out there that took the time to polish everything. It isn’t so much to ask from a developer that is going to make a classic look, to at least make the graphics high res or something. I am tired of indie developers using that “retro” crutch and getting away with it.

The bottom line, he was too lazy to try and get better art and that is that. The games value would be worth more, in my eyes, if he had spent a lot more time making those “retro” graphics higher resolution or something.

And btw, there is a reason those graphics are called “retro”.

@d2king10,

Not to insult you or anything, but, you really sound like you’re talking out your ass now. Terry never claimed to be great at making graphics. Have you even played any of his other games?!?!? Have you even played VVVVVV? Do the graphics kill the gameplay? If so then you probably wouldn’t want to post comments for most of the front page TIGSource stuff, or at indiegames. Some people were good at art before they started making games, others have had to learn the art of making art to fit their game. There are talents and skills that each developer can bring to the table. Terry happens to be pretty darn good at level design and thinking out what he wants to do with a game. He might have been able to make better graphics but that could have been much more time consuming. It’s not that he’s lazy, perhaps he just wants to be able to pay his rent and eat. He said himself that VVVVVV became a much bigger project that he had first foreseen. He’s put a lot of time into the gameplay already and as much time as he could afford into the graphics. People were already patiently waiting for this to be released because they like Terry’s other games so much. The only other option he would have had would be to hire an artist, and on no budget, that’s unlikely to happen. Beyond that, I think Terry had an idea of how he wanted to make it look to accompany how it played. In the end, it works, otherwise nobody would have bought it. Maybe he’ll have a head start on his future games now that VVVVVV has been released if he finds commercial success that can sustain him in his own little niche of the interwebs and indie game development.

Since you’re so good at making games though, please bestow upon us your Rembrandt so we can learn from your work. I’m curious d2king10, how did you come up with a game that was both fun to play and was graphically amazing in a matter of no time or budget?

@dudeman http://wwwdotnizkordotorg/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotiondothtml

replace [dot] with .

@dudeman go to Google. type “appeal to emotion fallacy” and click “I’m feeling lucky.”

Tell me what you see.

I’d post a link but the overaggressive spam filters won’t let me.

ok, I get it now. English isn’t my native language so I sometimes don’t understand or misinterpret phrases.

Also @d2king10: Why are only hi-res graphics good graphics? I don’t think there’s an objective judgement to be made. Terry said numerous times that he’s not good at art. He probably just tried to make something aesthetically appealing with the talent he has, at which he’s succeeded in my opinion.

I hope terry feels like a star. this is one of the longest threads that’s been on tigsource’s front page in a LONG time.
also, six vs is the first indie game i’ve ever bought. i’ve been playing indie games for 10 years or so.

@d2king10

You’re totally coming over as a graphics whore, here. I’m sorry, but you are.

You’re ignoring accessibility, level design, writing, controls, and failing to understand art aesthetics.

If you’ve just come over to the indie scene from Gears of war, I suppose I could understand, but there’s not a great deal of difference between, say, VVVVVV and Knytt Stories. Are you going to condemn Knytt Stories, too?

VVVVVV was supposed to look like an old home computer game, but a bit modernised, and it achieves that goal perfectly. It doesn’t have a high pixel count, and it doesn’t push polygons. But all of the other things I mentioned it does right.

It’s clever, it’s pick up and play, it’s fun, funny, earnest, honest, and charming. The level design is genius, and taxing, and yet thanks to the inventive checkpoint system it’s never punishing.

If you’re looking at graphics instead of a game that’s fun to play, then I can’t take you too seriously.

And as others have pointed out, perhaps he could have added different graphics, but that would have cost him, and it might have made the game worse. It would’ve robbed the game of its beautiful visual aesthetic (yes, I like it), and it might have suffered a problem that a number of polished indie games do.

Look at Zero Gear, for example. It looks great, but it’s not a whole lot of fun to play.

So indeed, if graphics are all that you care about in a game, then you can’t really like the vast majority of the games that you’d see at TIGSource and the Indie Games blog. If that’s the case, why post about something that you have no comprehension of?

@Junker

That fallacy doesn’t apply in a discussion like this, I find the application of it here tantamount to insipidity.

Simplified, here’s what you’re implying: We should all listen to an opera, and then provide an emotionless, logical write-up on the efficiency of the display, how exact the notes where, whether people were standing in exactly the right places, and so on.

We can’t all be art critics, or robots. Some of us do appreciate things on a more emotional level. Entertainment especially so, as it quite often is designed to provoke some kind of emotional response.

In the case of VVVVVV it evokes anger sometimes, jubilation, satisfaction, awe, and appreciation. And that’s what’s meant by feeling a game. If you play it and you don’t feel these things then you’re not going to get the same thing out of the game that peoople who do, and no amount of explaining is going to convey these emotions to you.

I’m sorry, Mr. Data, but really… trying to apply that fallacy here is funny. We’re not debating over scripture, or Scientific theory, or even politics. We’re talking about whether we like a game or not.

And of course you can “feel” a piece of entertainment.

Gods, when pseudo-intellectual undergrads pull this nonsense in a completely out of context way, I end up facepalming so much that it leaves this nasty red mark on my head. It’s really embarrassing, I wish you wouldn’t do that.

Lrn2TheoryOfKnowledge

I was going to buy Bach’s “Goldberg Variations” on CD, but the guy at the record shop pointed out I could get the best of the Spice Girls for the same price. The Bach is just one guy playing a piano, whereas there are five Spice Girls, not to mention all the session musicians and backing singers and stuff. And the production is way more high-tech, with autotune and drum machines and everything.

So I got the Spice Girls, because it’s better value. Don’t really see how that Bach guy can justify charging full price for a solo piano recording. And it’s all just variations on the one theme anyway.

>That fallacy doesn’t apply in a discussion like this, I find the application of it here tantamount to insipidity.

Hurp derp derp more syllables means more knowledge.

>Simplified, here’s what you’re implying: We should all listen to an opera, and then provide an emotionless, logical write-up on the efficiency of the display, how exact the notes where, whether people were standing in exactly the right places, and so on.

Implying that’s what he was implying.

>We can’t all be art critics, or robots. Some of us do appreciate things on a more emotional level. Entertainment especially so, as it quite often is designed to provoke some kind of emotional response.

Once again, you are pitching me the “this game is god and we are its true believers” argument. I’d recommend reading my above post, if you haven’t. It got flagged as spam, I guess because it was really long, but it’s up now at number 213.

>In the case of VVVVVV it evokes anger sometimes, jubilation, satisfaction, awe, and appreciation.

So does taking a dump. If this is the only game that has made you feel these emotions, seriously, play more video games before you say shit like this.

>I’m sorry, Mr. Data, but really… trying to apply that fallacy here is funny. We’re not debating over scripture, or Scientific theory, or even politics. We’re talking about whether we like a game or not.

No, we are talking about if the game is GOOD or not. I like plenty of bad games. I would not recommend a game to a person solely because it has sentimental value to me.

>And of course you can “feel” a piece of entertainment.

You can feel things ABOUT a piece of entertainment, but the emotions are yours. Do you go around “feeling” books or movies? Even if you’re calling games a “medium for storytelling” or something, that still sounds pretty stupid.

>Gods, when pseudo-intellectual undergrads pull this nonsense in a completely out of context way

Heh “Gods”. No, Werewolf, you are the pseudo-intellectual undergrads.

>Lrn2TheoryOfKnowledge

And then Werewolf was a 4chan.

@dbb,

o.O :-/ Whoa! That’s probably the most sarcastic comment ever made… EvArr!

:)

I just wanted to drop by and mention that I’ve played the full game now, and really enjoyed it.

Props to Terry for polishing this as much as he did. I love to see games that get this kind of treatment. I haven’t played all the IGF design finalists yet, but I’d be extremely surprised if this isn’t more solid than most of them.

If you can’t logically express why you are having the emotions you have over something, then it’s called insanity. At which point, you should seek help, not think you can win an argument without logic.

What about the opera made you feel that way? The singing? The lighting or stage design? Maybe it invoked some memory of your past, or reminded you of something?

Nothing is beyond explanation or reasoning. That has to be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.

Also for that last point, if it reminded you of something, what exactly did it remind you of and how is it relevant to the subject at hand?

If “well, that’s just my opinion man” is the best you can do, then you really don’t have much of a solid reason for liking this game, do you?

Christ, this is worse than people on DA who say that’s just my style when people try to point out flaws in anatomy or proportion. well thats just ur opinion, i cant be wrong cuz it looks gud to me im immune to logic srry ^_^

Christ, this is worse than people on DeviantArt who say “that’s just my style” when people try to point out flaws in anatomy or proportion. WELL THATS JUST UR OPINION, I CANT BE WRONG CUZ IT LOOKS GUD TO ME. IM IMMUNE TO LOGIC SORRY.

@junker: “nothing is beyond explanation or reasoning”

that sentence has to be the most ridiculous thing _i’ve_ ever heard.

there is something called the unconscious mind, see. and emotions are a component of this. unconscious response to external stimuli. if you could explain your emotions rationally then you really would be insane. rationality and emotion are two entirely different things; while one’s morals can be very different from those of other people, emotional responses are generally similar. sure, there may be something that could be explained about your emotions, but that’s completely impossible to do using language

GUYS VVVVVV TRANSCENDS LOGIC, IT EFFECTS PEOPLES LIFES ON A PERSONAL LEVEL MAN. HOLY SHIT. ITS LIKE THE MOTHERFUCKING JESUSGAME OR SOMESHIT

i can tell fuzz is a creationist

Aren’t we getting a bit off topic here? The subject is VVVVVV and it’s pricing.

Not whether logical fallacies are actually fallacies (good god, I can’t believe I’m reading any of this. How could something get so sidetracked?)

>if you could explain your emotions rationally then you really would be insane.

Fuzz, is that a joke? If my dog died, and I was depressed as a result, and my friend came up to me and said “dude, are you depressed? Why are you depressed?”, I would be able to say “My dog died” and he would understand, because that’s a good REASON to have that EMOTION.

There are things beyond explanation and reasoning, the miracles and the mystical, but believe me these things are a bit too off-topic to bother with here. Hell, even if we were in a position to talk about them, we wouldn’t be able to; they’re outside the scope of our reasoning.

But yeah, VVVVVV isn’t one of those things. Nothing created by a human being can be one of those things. I swear to god you guys. Once again: “this game is god, and we are its true believers.”

>The subject is VVVVVV and it’s pricing.

It’s overpriced.

I figured this many comments in everyone would have reached that conclusion!

But apparently I overestimate people because I guess we are talking about the emotional reaction we have to a *fucking frustration platformer*.

PROTIP: It’s “fun” and/or “frustration”. MYSTERY FUCKING SOLVED

actually this has nothing to do with mysticality and etc, just that the mind isn’t advanced enough to comprehend how emotion works or what causes it- eg. if we could comprehend our emotions, then they would not exist. essentially a thing cannot contain itself.

yes, there are vague reasons, but even those are suppositions and not entirely correct. you can say, “my dog died”, but that doesn’t mean that that’s the sole reason that you’re depressed, it’s just that your dog’s death exacerbated existing emotions, along with other factors- death tends to clarify emotions, rather than cause them.

@somebody- i’m an atheist, but that’s derived from a complex set of values that i couldn’t outline in this comment section, not from “hey god doesn’t exist”

@fuzz, what does this have to do with VVVVVV’s pricing?

I am not saying that a game needs great graphics, and if this game was free – $5 I would be okay with what is in the game, however, if he is going to be charging $15, then he can spend a lot more time into the graphics or get someone to do them for him.

>actually this has nothing to do with mysticality and etc, just that the mind isn’t advanced enough to comprehend how emotion works or what causes it- eg. if we could comprehend our emotions, then they would not exist. essentially a thing cannot contain itself.

Fuzz, of course we can’t get it perfectly, in the same way that any communication is imperfect. We can safely come up with simplified models, though, in the same way we’ve come up with words. I can assume that if I punch someone in the gut out on the street, nine times out of ten it will inspire his anger. And if we couldn’t properly predict emotions in this way, a work such as a book or a movie or this game wouldn’t be able to cause anyone to feel anything with any accuracy.

Honestly though, we’re getting way off topic. This shit has nothing to do with the game. Emotions have nothing to do with the game, even. As I said before, when coming up with a decent criticism, you have to figure that your personal sentimental value of that game might not apply to other people. Your emotions don’t indicate the way other people will react; the only thing that remains constant is the game itself. So, what’s worth explaining about this game when criticizing it CAN be explained, because it was created by a human mind and can be circumscribed by one.

I’ve made a mistake here, because I was trying to avoid an issue. As it goes, a book or movie or, well, a medium, can communicate an emotion in accordance with my first paragraph above, because that’s what a medium does. A medium is a method for communication.

A game is not a medium. A game is a simulation, that is, a game creates a small world and simple rules that everything within that world abides by. And it plops you into that world, and says “do what you want”. Because no matter who the main character of the game is THE PLAYER is still ultimately the protagonist, there’s no predicting how the main character will respond and how he will go about his business in the game world. And in the end, that’s why a game can’t really “communicate” (except through movies and text and maybe graphics (media) coded in it). For instance, I never got angry at VVVVVV, nor did it make me especially happy. I just stopped playing it.

This stuff is still irrelevant, but I thought I’d clarify so nobody thinks I didn’t know the above post was inconsistent.

anyway, i think this comment thread has run its course. the issue of pricing has been discussed at length (unresolved), as have the issues of graphics and overall quality (both unresolved). people have different opinions, and trying to reconcile theirs to yours won’t usually make a big difference.

which is why it seems perfectly suitable to discuss emotions v. rationality here

ah, but linearity in games allows them to be a medium, doesn’t it?

Not really, fuzz, because the player still has control over his actions. It remains a simulation of a world. If it’s linear, well, that just means it’s simulating a world that just happens to be a hallway. The player can still act upon the world in a multitude of ways, depending on the game, and it’s his choice which way he acts. I can play through a shmup collecting all the items, for example, or I can choose to only use the alt fire. And if I’m not very good, I won’t last very long. The game isn’t forcing me to do any of these things, hell, it isn’t even forcing me to live. And nothing really works as a metaphor, either, because the world of the game is a substitute for reality. The player rejects reality in favor of the world of the game.

I mean, in the long run, this can potentially lead to more powerful experiences than in books or movies (or cutscene-heavy games), because rather than watch someone overcome challenges, simulations allow us to overcome those challenges themselves. And the more immersive the simulation is, the closer we get to actually doing it. Doing is always better than watching.

Still, this is all unrelated to what we were talking about. I was just making sure my ass was covered. As far as I’m concerned, the issue of pricing is certainly “resolved”, and so is the issue of the graphics overall quality of the game. I don’t expect to convince everyone, but if the discussion is finally over I think I’ve made my points as clear as possible and am pretty much done here. And I’d rather not keep bothering with emotions and rationality. I was only ever talking about them because they were key to an opposing point about the game.

edit: should be

>simulations allow us to overcome those challenges ourselves.

I think we should separate the discussion about the game being overpriced and his actual merits.

Is it overpriced? Maybe, I paid the 15 bucks and I feel he could have put a bit more gamey rooms instead of creating the huge outdoor area.

I feel that the absurd circlejerk about graphics,jesus,the creationists and all that nonsense stems from the fact that you’re obsessed with the price tag more that the game itself. The graphics are good, get over it.

Me? I’ve hardly even mentioned the price tag. I think we pretty much finished up the price argument long ago, come to pretty much the same conclusion you have.

No, no, we’re talking about the quality of the game here, of which “graphics” is a part of. Or we were, but then me and Fuzz just shot the shit for a little while. That a problem?

>absurd circlejerk about graphics,jesus,the creationists and all that nonsense

Clearly you only read three words of the above 200+ posts. I don’t blame you.

this game made me happy and you people are all very silly.

That was pretty much my starting point too: the game made me happy. Why? I’ve played thousands of games and I’m pretty jaded these days – I would say that 95% or more of games make me feel mostly just mild boredom. But this game made me happy when I played it. I conclude: there’s something there that I’m not getting from other games.

If it didn’t make you happy, then I guess it’s not for you. There isn’t really anything especially clever I can offer to admire about it on an intellectual level (except to say that there is a real art to stripping something down to its essentials: there’s not many games I can think of that manage to make so much out of so little, and they are all classics). It’s a question of refinement, and you can’t really have a logical argument about refinement.

It’s like if you had an abstract composition of coloured shapes, and it looked okay. But if you move one of the triangles an inch to the left, or change that shade of green to a slightly lighter shade, then it looks a whole lot better. And there is a point where it looks “just right”, and everything harmonises.

There isn’t really anything you can say to explain why one picture looks right and another doesn’t. Some people will look at it and just go “YES”. Other people will say “it’s just coloured shapes; I don’t get it”.

This is clearly not a game that appeals to everyone. But I think that for people who are tuned to that particular frequency, there is a strong sense that VVVVVV has nailed that “just right” feeling.

Playing the demo doesn’t give you the whole impression and feel of the whole game. So those of us who played the demo never really got to the whole “happy” and “everything just seems to fit” mentality. Knytt and Untitled Story made me feel happy, and they are some of the best games I’ve played. But I didn’t have to pay 15$ or have someone tell me to just play it and “you’ll get it”. And if they had been 15$ I wouldn’t have played them and wouldn’t have been inspired by them.

@JAmster

“And if they had been 15$ I wouldn’t have played them and wouldn’t have been inspired by them.”

I’m not a huge fan of capitalism myself, but whenever anyone says something like this, the neon DOUBLE STANDARD light blinks on in my head.

If you’ve never paid to enjoy anything and your life was one of free things, lived inexpensively (akin to he developer of Passage), then I could actually understand that.

But have you seen a movie lately that you’ve raved about? Avatar, perhaps? Have you played a console game, any console game, and had any emotions stirred by that?

If so, it’s a double standard. Why is it YESGOOD to pay huge corporations large sums of money and rave about something, yet it’s EVILBAD to pay a smaller sum to an independent developer who’s trying to get their footing, financially?

Normally, I don’t support the whole Dystopia NOW notion, it’s a bit nonsense, but when I see things like this, I do worry that people are being carted off to little black rooms and having their noggins tampered with.

Brand names are good, start-up nobodies are bad, brand names are good, start-up nobodies are bad, brand names sare good~…

Because on a more serious note, that’s what the whole double standard looks like. Independent developers who’re perhaps not financially well off and yet are still doing their best to develop fun games are not as worthy as bigger companies who’ve got so much cash that they’re rolling in it, like a pig in shit.

I feel that Terry’s game should allot him at least some amount of success, but this is a Sheep-staffed World we live in, and that evil indie dev is probably only going to spend it on drugs, or alcohol, or something.

I don’t think it is the difference between paying a huge company or paying an indie developer, it is just that comparing the $15 I could spend on this game to comparing $15 on a game at gamestop, I am going to get a lot more for the $15 from a game from a company.

Thus why $15 is too much, and why a lot of people have posted stating such. I am 100% positive that if he bumped the price down to $5 he would sell a shit load more copies and there would be a lot less complaining, but as it is now, it feels as if I am paying $15 for a game I could find on any free flash website.