A Message to TIGS from Teh Internets

I… ah…

Oh, fuck it. I’ll get the popcorn.

this video isn’t perfect, it has flaws. I just had to say on the internet.

Derek, the repercussions of you posting this video on TIGSource will be felt for years to come.

They said the same thing when I posted Cave Story, Sergio.

Be excellent to each other.

This is going to piss alot of people off, because it’s not always clear precisely what kind of poster he’s caricaturing. I predict that yet another sprawling argument will follow.

Yes, you better not have anything bad to say about Braid because then you’re just a complaining retard.

I love you, man.

Seriously. I love you all. Edmund, c’mere, gimme a big smooch.

Hoooo boy. This… will be excellent.

That was amazing!

Totally awesome.

Angry *Angry Video Game Nerd* Nerd? Anyway, I’m looking forward to responses to this video (starring Edmund, of course).

Yes, be excellent to each other. Drink lots of water.

Cereal bars are okay, but a lot of them have large amounts of sugar in them. Don’t be fooled into thinking you’re doing yourself any good by eating them.

Citizen, it’s not your business to complain. Now go on and enjoy what we have provided for you.

I don’t know about this childish form of repetitive humor. Obviously, from previous comments, a lot of people think it’s funny but after the first round of repetition it becomes quite boring. It’s a waste of bandwidth more than it’s actually any entertaining. You should edit it down to a shorter version and you may stand chance at making smarter people smile or even laugh. Sarcasm only works in sharp and compact laconism (yeah, look up that word in your only dictionary, you ignorant dehydrated masturbation addict). You shouldn’t try it (laconism that is) as you clearly don’t understand it. Also your tattoo is not symmetrical.

looks like someone got trolled pretty hard

no criticism allowed for my arty indie games thanks

hmm fun video.
But why can’t people make commentary, (bad or good) on games ?
Everyone like talking about them !
But sometimes some of them are talked really too much and some people start buying it with no good reason and then the flamewar begin.

You should take it as a good sign, if your game is commented by stupid people that mean your game gained a really good coverage over the internet. =)

EPIC.

special times begin:

now

Any possibility of comments on tigs going back to talking about games, rather than talking about talking about games?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrI7QUJfkvI

TEE-EYE-GEE?

That was quite a video. It had lots of videos in it, which I applaud as I enjoy the videos which are mostly video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkrtcruRsOY

Firesword, that’s a bit evil.

lol

Holy crap. Most win video on the internet.

The thing I like most is that he’s using AOL. That makes the trolling perfect. Not to mention the fact that his internet forums just so happen to be the email form.

Wow… that was very strange :/

this is not as good as these comments say it is

Makes me want to make a youtube video goofing on people who criticize youtube videos goofing on people who criticize independent video games on the internet.

Isn’t that…? Oh yeah it is.

How come it’s so hard not to feed the trolls? This will make their day and Edmund will forever be their number one target.

Congratulations!

haha

can we change the ‘submit’ button to read ‘DURR DURR DURR DOOP DE DOO’?

beautiful.

+infinity to Malasdair’s suggestion

although the sad part about this video is that these people it’s about will take it as more evidence that indie game designers don’t want constructive criticism of their games, they don’t seem to know the difference between that and what this video’s talking about

i think the best parts of this video is when he starts laughing randomly at what he does, it’s like a double laugh, one can detect both him the game designer and him pretending to be the internet critic in that laugh

I was going to prove that this video has flaws and isn’t delivering the message very well, but you’re already mocking me in advance. So I’ll say something simpler:

Without criticism, there is only complacency.

And we don’t want that.

Edmund D: stop being on teh internet and do another game. I want to play it and then complain the shit out of your work.
ON TEH INTER-NET!

Anyway, is Edmund pissed off with tig users or what? Fuck You D: TIG is the best place in the woarld. On the Internet.

Well, way to go. Despite him having a point that there are trolls on the Internet, this will drive another thorn into the whole mess.

Hello Paul, by the way:
You still don’t seem to reckognize the issue people are having. No one denies the existence of such trolls. But; perfectly normal comments have been declared as retarded and aggresive behavior simply because they were not “pro that certain game”. That’s the issue.

“this game sucks so bad, someone needs to die” <- Trolling
“I don’t particularly like this game” <- Some Devs falsely regarding this as Trolling

It’s okay, Eclipse. Stay calm. Everything is going to be fine.

Life sucks. Wear a hat.

Well, they say it takes an idiot to know an idiot.

>> “I don’t particularly like this game” <- Some Devs falsely regarding this as Trolling

It’s not trolling, but sometimes it’s not helpful. Normally, people don’t post negative comments, unless, of course, they are asked to tell their opinion in one line. That’s also a reason to think that most of these comments are by people who are pissed off by positive comments. So, if we’re all for freedom of speech, much better (and honest) expression of that emotion would be “Damn, those positive comments piss me off for some reason. I hate this game because of that” rather than telling you don’t like it.

I hope I’m clear.

rather than telling something like “Oh, shit, this game suck. It’s so slow!”

“That’ll show ‘em.”

Hahahaha

AmnEn: I really haven’t often seen any developer ever say something like that. If you’re referring to my joke about the first two comments in Spewer, I already explained (twice, I think?) that it was not intended as an attack on those comments, but a joke that the first few comments weren’t bad as was becoming usual. The joke was really on the comments from previous entries, not on those comments. I realize humor is open to misinterpretation a lot, but I think you should give someone the benefit of the doubt when they explain the intent behind their joke, not continue to interpret it as an attack on those comments even long after I explained that that wasn’t what I meant.

Eclipse: I think he actually meant the TIGSource frontpage comments, not the forums, even though he said “TIGSource fourms”. You don’t see as much negativity in the forums because people have to actually have names and accounts and emails and can be held accountable for what they say there.

Paul, I don’t think he’s concerned with your comments. I think he’s talking about Edmund’s opinion on negative comments. I think he said he doesn’t appreciate negative one-liners or something like that, regardless if they are rude or a bit nicer.

Edmund’s stance does appear to be a little more hardline than Paul’s.

I kind of agree with Edmund that negative one-liners are rude and usually useless, but I agree with AmnEn that negative one-liners aren’t as bad as personal attacks and can sometimes be helpful too. But It’s like, say Jon Blow sees a comment on Braid that says:

“It’s just a Super Mario Bros. 3 clone.”

That’s a negative one-liner. It is a criticism of the game. But is it helpful? Can he actually use that to make his games better? It’s not like Blow will read that and suddenly have a revelation that he shouldn’t make Mario 3 clones or something and instead make something that will please that critic.

Sometimes a developer *can* get useful info from negative one-liners though. For instance a common negative one-liner about Immortal Defense is that the person is confused and doesn’t know what’s going on in the screenshots/trailer. That’s helpful to me, even though it’s a negative one-liner.

Well, here are the flaws of your video, eddmund.
While you try to portray some indie gamers that comment bad comments on indie games.
You are actually portraying yourself with this video.
Because this video is exactly like a mean comment about a game.
Only its you making a mean comment about gamers.
So think of the gamer as a game, if that helps. You are criticising the people who play the games?
Ok, thats your right to do so(although, I don’t like the idea of making fun of people).
But you are no better than them, you are even worse. Because instead of making a few lines in a comment, you make a whole “video comment”.

@Guy: Well, at least Edmund isn’t insulting anyone specific, he’s more of insulting a particular form of behavior. So I think it’s different than a character attack on a particular person.

Its the internet-s- fools, gets it rights.., great video,. but it sucks! and cost too much, and was not fun,. and your such a premadona video developer who gets all the attention and you don’t deserve it,. because you suck,. loved the video though. I could make a better one,. but I am too important.

Always feed the trolls, as with out trolls what fun are the internets..,

Funny how there’s less trolls in this topic than in the blow topic.

Also I like how the video essentially shuts itself off from criticism by making anyone who tries to point out its flaws look like who Edmund is making fun of.

Well played.

Where’s Cactus in whole that story?

.Yes. – You get those game makers on the onlines.

Paul Eres,
I am sure edmund had the intetion of insulting people, and not make them think “Hmm, maybe my behaviour is not appropriate, I better change my ways”

I definetely feel that the whole elitist you-can’t-critisise-my-gimmicky-game-cuz-it’s-art attitude is a way bigger problem in the “indie scene” then trolls. Every time I see anyone make a bad remark about some game (even when it’s totally well put and to the point) theres always a bunch of flames practicaly demonizing that person for having an opinion. The buddyreviewing and exaggerated defensiveness is counterproductive and leads to crappier games.

PLATFORMERS! YOU’RE ALL PLATFORMER MAKERS!

@Glaiel Gamer

Why would anyone need to criticize it when it inherently metacriticizes itself?

This video suck, The lighting is so awful it makes my eyes bleed, I didn’t even watch half of it.

etc. wrote:

“TWO THOSE PEOPLE ONLY EXIST TO MAKE HIS WROK BETTER”

Clearly not necessary, since it’s already well known that nothing beats wrok!

hehe, fat guys are funny, no matter what they do. hehehe.

lolol.

shitstorm because a guy, said some words, because some other guys, said some other words, about a thing.

it’s all just words and things really. lolol

oh no i said some other words, about a thing. oops

“Paul Eres, I am sure edmund had the intetion of insulting people, and not make them think “Hmm, maybe my behaviour is not appropriate, I better change my ways””

Actually it at least worked on me. After watching this video whenever I found myself even thinking about criticizing something I held back and realized it’d be stupid. Maybe this effect will only last a few hours, though.

This is almost as embarrassing as the “Indie Games Rant Session” from GDC.

Hey! I know that guy! I may have occasionally read some of his posts!

This video is funny, except that it’s the front page commenters that are the target, not the innocent TIGForums members :I

Yay, if we’re going to feed the trolls, we might as well do it with video.

*hifive*

this is the official comment on the posting of the video about the guy complaining about the behavior of people posting on a forum.

Coming Soon!

The video about the official comment on the posting of the video about the guy complaining about the behavior of the people posting on a forum.

I have no idea, really.

Yep! Funny video. On the subject, I recently read an article on dealing with non-constructive comments. Seems like a simpler way to go than to try to crusade against millions of trolls, if anyone had such intentions.

Might be a little bit far out for some, buy it or don’t.

http://zenhabits.net/2007/09/how-to-accept-criticism-with-grace-and-appreciation/

What we found with Scarygirl is that people on forums / blog comments were like this – people on Twitter were all “Wow, play this game, it’s awesome”. Strange difference!

toastie, don’t you know that saying “feeding the trolls” is considered trolling as well? ;)

INWARD SINGING CHECK IT OUT

I fully endorse Malasdair’s suggestion. I believe TIGSource would be a better place with a virtual slap upside the head.

I played this game on the internet called spwerer it got 10 out of 10 alot but I can see that its obviously more like 9 out of 10 I mean what the fuck the main guy is a circle anyone can draw a circle I can draw a circle I could do that thats not hard atall you dont deserve recognition for something thats not hard, thats not fair, thats not fair on me and the hard things I do, on the internet.

Corpus: i was joking :O but i think i’m not so good at this in english…

Any popcorn left, guys?

dude, mix down the room tone.

For people who are still mad because “everyone at TIGSource hates it when you criticize Jon Blow” or whatever: maybe you should note that not every critical post is receiving a lot of angry responses. For example, there’s a big difference between:

Example 1: “I didn’t really get Braid at all: it seemed like there wasn’t much to it. Why did you guys like it?”

and

Example 2: “Braid is a shitty game. In fact, I’m not even sure it is a game. There’s no gameplay at all. You’re stupid for liking it.”

And all right, these are cartoon versions of what I’m talking about, but you get the idea. Example 1 is where we have a conversation: you say something, I say something and then we talk about our things. Example 2 is where you barge in and loudly declare that everyone around you is stupid.

Also note that, in Example 1, you are asking a question. You are showing concern for what other people think. This is a good indicator to people that you are interested in actually talking about the topic, and not just declaring your opinion.

In an actual conversation, people can even disagree with your opinions, and that’s okay. If you pull an Example 2, and people tell you that you are not being constructive, the worst possible response is, “You just hate it when anyone says anything bad about anything. You’re trying to restrict my freedom of speech.” Honestly, I don’t know what that is. Trolling? Total obliviousness to a social situation?

Look, it isn’t hard to put some care into how you say things, and to try to engage people on the internet like there are actual people on the other end. Tons of people manage to do this every day, and I don’t think it’s beyond anyone here. I can’t believe I’m even having to say this, but just don’t be a dick. It isn’t actually particularly difficult.

Aw, my comment got moderated.

But yes, I really did write a simple guide on how not to be a jerk on the internet.

It’s so simple that anyone can do it!

I ACTIVATED it, Mr. Whitman!

Now you look silly, ho ho ho.

Shit! Is this guy me? :(

I… I never realized… OH GOD WHAT HAVE I BECOME?!

Is this about Spewer? I mean look. That whole thing was people overreacting to something that easily could have been ignored in the first place.

Yeah, some comments on here don’t elaborate too much or can’t be considered detailed arguments. The thing is though, a comments section is not a review section. A comments section implies just that; “comments.”

Kind of like if someone asks you to comment on the shirt they’re wearing.

If someone asked you “what do you think about my new shirt?” Would you give them a long detailed review about it? I don’t think so.

Curse you, McCartin!

Crap, this site is really messing up for me for some reason. It’s loading very slowly and my posts aren’t showing up the first time I post them.

I think it’s cuz I made some posts, I dunno. It’s super slow for me too.

“If someone asked you “what do you think about my new shirt?” Would you give them a long detailed review about it? I don’t think so.”

The thing is, a game or a developer isn’t like a shirt. If you say “your shirt is ugly” you aren’t likely to hurt someone’s feelings because they aren’t their shirt and they didn’t make their shirt. But if they actually *did* make their shirt (designed it) and you tell them it’s ugly they’re liable to be offended, just as if you tell them their face is ugly they’re liable to be offended.

Looks like somebody can’t take critique. Here is a pro-tip buddy: if you don’t want people to bitch about your stuff, don’t make public. On teh internets I mean.

Ok, seriously? This shit needs to stop.

I agree with going back to talking about games rather than talking about talking about games. Like judgespear said, this all started because Edmund and his cronies acted like big crybabies and threw a tantrum when not everyone was writing a doctoral thesis on the positives and negatives of his oh so glorious game about throwing up and then consuming said vomit.

They’re called “comments” for a reason.

There will always be people that will hate absolutely everything you do. This isn’t exclusive to the Internet. The best thing a person can do is ignore the unhelpful comments because feeding trolls will only cause migraines.

>> Kind of like if someone asks you to comment on the shirt they’re wearing.

If someone asked you “what do you think about my new shirt?” Would you give them a long detailed review about it? I don’t think so.

The thing is – nobody asked you about opinion. It’s an assumption, but if the author of the post or the person the post is about asks you not do something in particular way (like post a negative comment) I think that’s a fair mean of communication and should be respected.

Sure, Edmund’s video is not that fair nor is constructive, but that’s possible outcome when people are dicks to people who can’t ignore dicks.

It’s sad that meta-communication is popular topic on frontpage, but oh well.

If your feelings are hurt by things people say on the internet, then you really need to step back and see what you’re doing wrong or learn to ignore those comments.

And don’t get me wrong, but I’m all for detailed arguments and the like but do they really belong in the comments section? If anything, talk about that kind of stuff on the forums, don’t try to force it in the comments section. I mean, look at what happens when you try to get someone here to elaborate on their little one liner sentence about the fact that the game didn’t load for them or they didn’t enjoy it? It turns into a meaningless discussion over nothing.

i like juice :)

This made my life. I need to buy Edmund a pony.

“The thing is – nobody asked you about opinion. It’s an assumption.”

Nobody asked for a long detailed review on the game either. There is no way you should force or assume that everyone is going to give an elaborate reason as to why they didn’t particularly like or enjoy something.

I meant could not should there. typo

Get that man a Fruit Basket, he deserves it.

“If your feelings are hurt by things people say on the internet, then you really need to step back and see what you’re doing wrong or learn to ignore those comments.”

Look, man, people need to take responsibility for the things they say. Sure, that goes for people who might overreact when their feelings are hurt, but it also goes for the people stomping around declaring everyone to be ‘crybabies,’ and the people who come out guns blazing the moment they dislike something.

What I see here is a lot of people who have spoken rather harshly pushing the responsibility on someone else. If you make a comment and someone gets upset, sure, they didn’t have to get upset, but I don’t see anyone forcibly preventing the trolls from apologizing either, or trying to *rephrase your comment in a less hurtful way*.

Erm, ‘their comment,’ I switched from the general you because it seemed very finger-pointing and forgot to change that.

Just… before you make a post, ask yourself “Am I behaving like a well-socialized person?” and “How would I feel if this was directed at me?”

It is really not hard. No one but you is responsible for what you type.

Chris Whitman: Guess what though? You don’t have to even read their comments. The old saying “don’t feed the trolls” still applies here.

Yes, you should act that way. I agree you shouldn’t be an asshole. But don’t expect people not to be.

At the same time, comments saying stuff like “i didn’t find this game fun” aren’t even being “assholes” in the first place. That’s a complete overreaction. I just think its silly to have your feelings hurt over something so small, something that isn’t even more than a sentence long.

>> Nobody asked for a long detailed review on the game either. There is no way you should force or assume that everyone is going to give an elaborate reason as to why they didn’t particularly like or enjoy something.

Yes, that’s true – nobody asked. So, don’t bother to comment. Or if you really want to then take a responsibility for your comment and participate in fair communication. If author doesn’t feel right about your comment don’t try to hold a lesson on how to ignore your actions (which might be an ideal solution, though, but it’s usually not the right time for learning to be effective). When someone talks about co-workers in a negative way, it’s natural that to be assertive and clearly state that you don’t like that kind of behavior. Your co-workers may agree or disagree, but how would you feel if they told you that you should just learn to ignore their behavior?

Sure, it’s possible that some of us who criticized trolls were a bit agressive.

“Yes, that’s true – nobody asked. So, don’t bother to comment.”

By that logic then, nobody should be able to comment on anything.

For everything else you’ve said, just who are you addressing really? Because if it’s towards me, you’re pretty much preaching to the choir. I agree with you. But at the same time, it doesn’t change the fact that there always will be trolls or people who don’t say nice things. Rather than getting so worked up about them, wouldn’t it be better just to ignore them or deal with them in a different way?

Judgespear, I know. I think what is being overlooked is that the ‘trolls’ are individuals who are also making choices. They are not a force of nature — they need to step up, take some responsibility and start behaving like decent human beings. Sure, it makes no sense to say that people responding were forced to respond, but it makes absolutely no sense to blame someone for having their feelings hurt by someone else. Is that not crazy?

Yeah, I haven’t seen any cases of outrageous response to “I didn’t find this game fun,” but if there have been I can’t say I endorse that. I think it would be overreacting to get mad about that sort of comment.

I have seen a lot of “This game is boring” or “this game is stupid,” and in the Jon Blow thread, all sorts of bashing on how he’s unqualified to speak or everyone who likes him is somehow worshipping him or whatever. That is going to make people mad. Sure, they don’t have to say anything about it, but it hurts feelings in any case.

All I’m saying is that people should think before they post. No one is restricting anyone’s free speech — coming to your house and saying you can’t say certain things — but on a site that has a community one should try to be respectful of that community. I really don’t think that’s too much to ask. No one needs to be a cowering sycophant, but honestly there are certain people who have been posting here who need to behave themselves.

“Yeah, I haven’t seen any cases of outrageous response to “I didn’t find this game fun,” but if there have been I can’t say I endorse that. I think it would be overreacting to get mad about that sort of comment.”

That was in the Spewer comments section, in which I spent hours trying to tell people to stop overreacting.

I assumed the video which also was by Edmund was a response to that.

As for everything else, like I’ve said, I agree with you.

But I still think the best way to deal with trolls is not to feed the trolls.

>> By that logic then, nobody should be able to comment on anything.

No, no, they should, but then they should follow certain rules and respect other people’s boundaries. You know, if author says he doesn’t like your comment and ask you to be nicer in future or be more constructive, then you respect that. If you don’t understand then you ask for further information and so on. That’s healthy communication. You know what I’m talking about?

>> But at the same time, it doesn’t change the fact that there always will be trolls or people who don’t say nice things. Rather than getting so worked up about them, wouldn’t it be better just to ignore them or deal with them in a different way?

Yes, I agree with that in that it’s the ideal solution, but I also think it’s rather impossible. What’s harder: to eliminate trolls completely or to learn to ignore negative comments like those posted on Cactus’s new game article? It’s hard to tell and I think the best solution would be to just assertively respond to trolls.

If you think you can learn how to be less sensitive to negative comments I encourage you to write a how-to.

Of course it’d be better to just ignore them, but not everyone can do that when personally attacked hundreds or thousands of times for each game they release. If you’re getting death threats by email it’s hard to just say “oh well, it’s the internet, I’ll ignore it”. Even the most calm person will find it hard to ignore things like that. Game developers aren’t always more mature than game players, you can’t expect them to be saints and to just flip a switch and not care about anything said about them or their games. Especially when many of the people encouraging game developers to do that likely don’t have much experience with the same quantity of personal attacks that they’ve experienced. Some attacks will make people upset no matter how they try to resist it or count to 100 or whatever, and this varies between people.

So in other words, while I agree that the optimum solution is to just ignore such things, that isn’t always possible. And I think there’s more blame to be attributed to the people who say such things than to the people who can’t ignore such things, even though both parties aren’t acting optimally.

“Yes, I agree with that in that it’s the ideal solution, but I also think it’s rather impossible. What’s harder: to eliminate trolls completely or to learn to ignore negative comments like those posted on Cactus’s new game article? It’s hard to tell and I think the best solution would be to just assertively respond to trolls.”

But that’s exactly what they want. They post comments like that to get an “assertive” response out of people. By responding to them, you’re pretty much allowing them to do what they sought out to do.

“And I think there’s more blame to be attributed to the people who say such things than to the people who can’t ignore such things, even though both parties aren’t acting optimally.”

But at the same time, this is the internet, where people can say whatever they want anonymously without even feeling anything about it (whether its responsibility or even empathy). Due to the anonymous nature of the internet, it’s pretty much expected anywhere you go on the internet for there to be trolls. I know it sucks, but you gotta learn how to ignore it because that’s the best way to deal with it. You can’t get rid of it, but you can let it not get to you and even ignore it.

>Yeah, I haven’t seen any cases of outrageous response to “I didn’t find this game fun,”

Are you serious? That’s what started this whole mess. Edmund utterly freaked when he saw the trend that not everyone is a nice/decent person on TIGS.

I’m all for people being decent and not trolling, but it’s horrendously naive to think that people are just going to all of a sudden act nice to one another and always consider other people’s feelings because you ask them nicely. That’s never happened throughout all of human history and it’s doubtful that it ever will happen.

>> But that’s exactly what they want. They post comments like that to get an “assertive” response out of people. By responding to them, you’re pretty much allowing them to do what they sought out to do.

They want *aggresive* responses, not assertive responses. Consistent assertiveness kills trolls. Ignorance on the other hand is a hit-or-miss because ignorance has no negative impact on trolls and *expert* trolls can keep trolling until they don’t provoke reaction.

And – people who usually post negative comments here are probably not real trolls. They are just negatively charged dudes.

“They want aggresive responses, not assertive responses. Consistent assertiveness kills trolls. Ignorance on the other hand is a hit-or-miss because ignorance has no negative impact on trolls and expert trolls can keep trolling until they don’t provoke reaction.”

It doesn’t kill trolls. If it did, there would be no problem here and the whole Jonathan Blow thing would be under 100 comments long. In fact, assertiveness is just as bad. Any sort of feedback in which you keep feeding a troll does exactly what they want, which is the disrupt and derail the whole flow of conversation.

It doesn’t matter how you react. The reaction itself doesn’t matter whether its an “assertive” or an “aggressive” one. They’re just looking for a reaction, and just a reaction itself, no matter what it may be. The best thing to do is not to give them one.

“… it’s horrendously naive to think that people are just going to all of a sudden act nice to one another and always consider other people’s feelings because you ask them nicely.”

It isn’t like I expect everyone on the internet to read what I wrote and swear to be a nice person from now on, but a big factor in people’s behavior is often that nastiness is just not stigmatized on the internet.

If you act to someone with outright hostility in person, typically you pay for it not just from that person, but from everyone else, who wonders why you are acting like a dick. We don’t have that feedback on the internet, and because we don’t have it, I think a lot of people may simply not realize how their comments actually sound to someone else.

I don’t know, failing to respond to someone who’s having a complete fit can cause extinction, but it can also validate someone’s feeling that they are ‘winning the internet,’ so if anything I think the best response is just to target the behavior directly and tell someone to try to keep it reasonable.

I’m sure some people are just jerks, but chances are there are some people who are just not cognizant of the fact that this is a community of people who work on things, and that those people are going to be upset (and rightfully so), if you just repeatedly insult things they’ve worked hard on. Since there’s nothing you can do about the former category, you might as well address the latter.

“And – people who usually post negative comments here are probably not real trolls. They are just negatively charged dudes.”

Either way, it’s the same principal. You should always take the high road whenever someone is trying to push your buttons.

*principle

I think the “high” road is to politely respond to people personally attacking you, treat them as people even when they don’t treat you as one, and if possible make friends with them. I find that works better and is a longer-term solution than just not responding.

Well, Judgespear is correct in that the best way control someone’s behavior when they are looking for attention is simply not to respond. That’s basic psychology.

However, I’m with Paul on this one: although it isn’t the most efficient or effective response, I think it’s only polite to treat people like people.

If someone can’t ignore trolls and bad criticism, they shouldn’t try to get out of anonymity. That’s life.Life is not all honey and unicorns.

Wow, this is still going on?

Paul, I disagree with you.

“…And I think there’s more blame to be attributed to the people who say such things than to the people who can’t ignore such things, even though both parties aren’t acting optimally.

It requires more effort to respond than to ignore a comment or person on the Internet. I hate reading forums and seeing posts from regular forum-goers to newer members, like “Use the search function!” Wasted energy.

And as it’s been said, while most of these types comments aren’t constructive, but how many times do developers listen to feedback and make changes? It’s a two-way street.

Well, its true, there are people behind the kebyoards.
And your comments might irritate, make someone angry or even offend people.
In a subject such as talking about a specific game, there is no reason why anyone should be offended.
But obviously, the developer who made the game is in a lot more sensitive place than just by passers.
I am certain many things that people will say about a game would piss off the developer.
I think the main problem is when people are trying to state facts, instead of saying their opinion.
“The gameplay did not appeal to me, because I get bored easily with puzzle games”
Is better than:
“Your game didn’t not succeded to capture the essence of a puzzle game”
So I can really understand when a game developer gets pissed off when people try to “state facts”.
But I think that edmund’s retaliation was not the right way to deal with it.

“I think the “high” road is to politely respond to people personally attacking you, treat them as people even when they don’t treat you as one, and if possible make friends with them. I find that works better and is a longer-term solution than just not responding.”

Sure. But again, on the internet you can’t really make friends with an anonymous comment left behind by someone who probably has no intention of doing anything other than annoying the crap out of you.

Ooops, ignore the double negative:
didn’t not = didn’t

But even still, yes. I agree you should be polite though and treat people nicely.

But you still have understand that there will be trolls and people who want to cause trouble due to the internet works and due to the fact that people have the ability to be a jerk under complete anonymity.

Anyway, at this rate I’m pretty much repeating myself. But I think you get what I’m trying to say.

Oh, you’d be surprised how many friends you can make with people who attack you — I definitely think it’s possible. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. I think a big reason some people act like that is that other people treat them like that. They don’t really know how to act in any other way because all their friends may act that way to them. So being polite to someone like that and considering their words instead of arguing with them and dismissing what they say is often a new experience to them.

“Oh, you’d be surprised how many friends you can make with people who attack you – I definitely think it’s possible. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. I think a big reason some people act like that is that other people treat them like that. They don’t really know how to act in any other way because all their friends may act that way to them. So being polite to someone like that and considering their words instead of arguing with them and dismissing what they say is often a new experience to them.”

Yeah, but I think you’re getting a bit off topic here.

We’re talking about people who post stuff like “this game is not fun at all” and then the way people react to such comments.

Just a little short comment like that. That doesn’t really leave much room for “making friends” or whatever you’re saying right now. Maybe if you were talking about in the forums with someone who keeps flaming other people, but in the comments section I don’t see how that applies.

So disable the comments.

Bam, problem solved!

I think most people are aware of that. I am.

I can go on and describe differences between troll and negatively charged dude. But I’ll ask in advance if that’s really necessary?

I can go on and explain what’s assertiveness and why the Jon Blow article isn’t proving that assertiveness is not effective. But is that necessary?

I can go on and mention some of the drawbacks of just ignoring things. But is that necessary?

I think that your point was: learn to ignore. Which I don’t discourage. If you think people can learn to ignore comments such as ones posted on Cactus’s new game article, well, be helpful and find a way to share that knowledge with us.

“If you think people can learn to ignore comments such as ones posted on Cactus’s new game article, well, be helpful and find a way to share that knowledge with us.”

Well, it’s more the fact that they didn’t and look what happened. Now if they did, things would be a lot different right now and we probably wouldn’t even be talking about this now.

Now if you’re saying it’s not something people can do, then I disagree with you. Because so far, this whole thing was started due to reacting to a certain few negative comments and nonsensical one liners that otherwise would have just faded into obscurity if people didn’t react to them in the way they did.

“Maybe if you were talking about in the forums with someone who keeps flaming other people, but in the comments section I don’t see how that applies.”

The first step is usually to change the format. If it’s a blog post, try to switch it to the forums, or ask for their email or AIM handle or something. I agree it’s hard to make friends in a comment thread, but you can always move the discussion to an inherently friendlier setting.

Hmm.. not sure I understand you.

“I think the “high” road is to politely respond to people personally attacking you, treat them as people even when they don’t treat you as one, and if possible make friends with them. I find that works better and is a longer-term solution than just not responding.”

That is not “high” but simply “altruistic”. It is popularily considered “better” because morals tell people that being altruistic is good, and being egoistic is bad. My take on that is: Well, fuck morals, i’ll just go for what is fair and is efficient. Efficient is not wasting my time with people with whom no useful interaction is possible. Efficient and fair is to interact with people for mutual improvement. Compatible with marketing guidelines and morals? Certainly not. Honest, fair and efficient? Yup.

@judgespear:

Yes, they made a mistake. They transferred emotions from previous article over to the Spewer article.

How to avoid making such mistake in future? React immediately.

or start a new topic on forums.

That’s some good corn. Buttery too.

I loled.

Everytime I’m feeling down about the internets, I shall watch this video and it will cheer me up. Thanks Edmund!

I loled.

Everytime I’m feeling down about the internets, I shall watch this video and it will cheer me up. Thanks Edmund!

All this drama is such a shame too because the true personality of TIGS is represented in the forums, not the anonymous front page comments. I second requiring a login to submit comments.

perhaps 5 comments max per topic per person?

Pee Pee

Edmund is my hero.

I sod dis. Dis topic. Fromt page. I cad see this alec noW ON COMMETS! THIS THE “AGUARIUM” GUY I THIK!!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
THAT GAME SUCKS!!!
ABOUT OCEANS!!!1

Yikes! That video wasn’t funny, but it was certainly hysterical.

Okay, now take a deep breath… and relax. Feel the internet trolls just melting away.

Edmund is still my hero.

“My take on that is: Well, fuck morals, i’ll just go for what is fair and is efficient.”

This makes the Frankfurt School of critical theory cry.

The Jon Blow interview’s trolling was more about “who does he think he is to be talking about games?!” than about Braid. Trolls don’t get interviews, so they get angry.

So many things to read, so little time.

If you like this video, you are probably lame. Not being sarcastic here, this was really lame. He got so worked up about people insulting his favorite games that he yelled at a camera for 6 minutes in a primitive form of satire. Stop letting cognitive dissonance make you angry, Seth Rogan! Honestly I liked you in Superbad but this is just pathetic.

“This makes the Frankfurt School of critical theory cry.”

If that school was unable to differentiate between “something being the case” and “wishing that something be the case”, then it probably wasn’t all that “critical” after all.

“If that school was unable to differentiate between “something being the case” and “wishing that something be the case”, then it probably wasn’t all that “critical” after all.”

Oh snap!

Actually, they were bright dudes. Max Horkheimer’s “Eclipse of Reason” is largely about the utilitarian outlook. You should check it out!

Well, what i tried to imply with my sarcastic comment was: that some people once said “morals should be about this and that” doesn’t imply that CURRENT morals ARE about this and that.

So when you said that my earlier post would make those people cry, then you were misinterpreting “me considering current morals stupid” as “me considering ANY possible morals stupid”.

Anyways, this is heading way off-topic. Thanks for the hint regarding the book.

Hi Edmund

A professional developer would see attacks of their game on the internet, and ignore it.

Man up and stop being a cry baby. How you can take attacks personally from anonymous internet idiots is beyond me. By responding you are only encouraging them and making the situation worse.

If you are driving down the street and someone yells an insult at you because they don’t like the colour of your car, what do you go? Go home and cry? Get out of your car and start a fight? If they are insulting a complete stranger then obviously they are an idiot and should be ignored.

YO! DIS A SHOOT OUT TO ALEC!! WHEN I! AM CALLING U OUT ON YU GAY GAM “ACQUARIUM!!!1 THIS GAME WWEAR YOU PLAY AS A ZORA AND GET PEACE OF THE TRIFORC (OR AS ALEC, CALL IT:’”TRI”-DENT AND 7 SPERES’)!! ALL HE CAD DO IS RIP OF ZELDA LIKE WITH HIS OTHER GAME ‘BRAD’!!QUIT POSITING THESE VIDEOS TO PROMOTE GISH!!!

“A professional developer would see attacks of their game on the internet, and ignore it.”

Then good thing we aren’t professional developers.

Also, I never said we should be polite to trolls for altruistic reasons, the whole morality thing is besides the point. I’m just about the least moral person you can imagine, but I still think it’s a good idea to make friends with one’s enemies rather than ignore them. Just like it’s in a nation’s interests to make friends of its enemies rather than ignore them.

ETC YO NEED TO GET!!!
GET HOME!!!1

Edmund is still my hero.

isee u are posting a lot today etc?? they must have upgarded the badwidth on yoUR AOL TELEPHONE to 256FHZ!!!!!lol!

trying too hard

Hey guys, this video is outrageous.

Sincerely, me.

PS.: I have not watched the video.

You know what I think?

I think you guys are taking this way too seriously.

i <3 edmund

@Paul

“I’m just about the least moral person you can imagine…”

Holy shit, you’re Cesare Borgia, infamous son of Pope Alexander VI?

Wait, didn’t you die in 1507?

I shall come and fuel this discussion when necessary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft-1OZafqe4

Beholden! I haz an opinion

Awwww cute, some game developer is angry and frustrated. Come here, you need a biiiiig hug!

Ok after watching the rest of the video I have to say:
Wow, you need help coping with critics.

this is just one of those videos that feels like an extended tutorial

this video makes me laugh every time.

The End?

People who give me feedback always make me feel sad, because either it is nice, and I think they’re just being polite, or it is nasty, and even if it’s potentially constructive, I can’t see past the negative tone.

Then, if I do get some positive, constructive feedback, you have to decide how to take it on board without feeling like you’re doing it for the wrong reasons: just to be polite, or because you’ve run out of faith in your own ideas. Or if you have to turn it down, you have to try not to offend the person whose feedback you have to politely disagree with.

It is a mine field, that’s for sure!

Learning to deal with feedback is definitely a skill in its own. I hope I will get better at it as time goes on.

>> How you can take attacks personally from anonymous internet idiots is beyond me. By responding you are only encouraging them and making the situation worse.

You are calling yourself an idiot?

@Chris: well, it was hyperbole. What I meant was that I don’t normally meet my own standards of morality and often fail to live by my principles. For instance, I set deadlines and then watch YouTube or play Starcraft all day instead of being productive. I say I will do things and then don’t due to laziness, sometimes for months at a time. Of course there’s a slight difference between supreme incompetence and supreme immorality, but that difference is just in the interpretation, in practical results and for all intents and purposes incompetence is immorality.

This discussion is less interesting than other discussions which I have seen on the internet in the past.

Boy, there sure are a lot of posts here!

PS. Love you Edmund!

tl;dw

@corpus
It was all the hype. Hype kills things. Kills them dead.

“Then good thing we aren’t professional developers.”

There’s a difference between being non-professional and being unprofessional. This video is the latter. Here’s a crazy idea; if you want people commenting on games to act in a mature and responsible way, would it not be a good first step for developers to do the same?

My point was you can’t expect indie developers to be more mature than the people who play our games. We’re amateurs. So what you’re saying may theoretically work but is practically impossible.

Maybe not, but I can expect the people complaining about immature behaviour to behave more maturely that the people they’re complaining about.

My only expectation is that people who post seven-minute video rants ought to try to at least be entertaining.

I realise that, having never made a video rant myself, some people might feel that I have no right to criticise. But I’ve certainly experienced having my work ripped to bits by internet critics, and while it’s not pleasant, at least it serves as a reminder that I can’t take my audience for granted and become self-indulgent.

Edmund may be a talented game developer, but his video ranting is sub-par.

@Jeffries: I agree, but telling people to act more professional usually doesn’t make them act more professional. Besides, I think funny videos are slightly more mature than anonymous internet insults; at least the former takes work.

@The Claymaster: I liked the video though — it’s rated highly on YouTube too and has a lot of positive comments there so I do think many people enjoyed it. Not entertaining to you doesn’t equal not entertaining. My rule is that I should never (or at least almost never) judge the quality of something by my personal reaction to it, instead you get more of a measure if you use the average reactions of others.

“I agree, but telling people to act more professional usually doesn’t make them act more professional. Besides, I think funny videos are slightly more mature than anonymous internet insults; at least the former takes work.”

Work that isn’t even necessary to begin with considering the latter could easily just be ignored in the first place.

It wasn’t necessary but it did provide entertainment.

Ehh, people like all kinds of crap, just like they hate all kinds of good stuff. They can’t be trusted. Which is kind of what this is all about, I guess.

I trust my own judgement as to whether something is good or not; I didn’t use to, but back then I recognised that I didn’t really have the experience to judge. Nowadays I feel like I do, that I’ve experienced enough of the good and the bad to have an idea of where something might sit on the scale. Although I’m always amenable to having my mind changed by somebody with a persuasive argument (as opposed to just a forceful opinion).

In my not-humble opinion, the video fails by being too long, too repetitive, and not witty or cutting enough. It’s basically an extended session of “this is you: nuur nuur nurrr I’m a retard”. Heartfelt, I guess, but hardly a great piece of video.

I suppose people who are sympathetic to the sentiments expressed may be more enthusiastic about it, but I can’t help but think of the example of someone like Charlie Brooker, who can spew bile for extended periods while being sincere and clever and funny and offensive all at once. That’s the gold standard of venting for me.

In a way, this whole thing is weirdly self-referential. I think Edmund’s rant was lazy and needed improving. I guess he didn’t really want to go to TOO much trouble to make it, but then again, if you’re going to make something and release it to the public (even if it’s just a video rant) you should try your best to make a really good one. Or failing that, make it shorter.

So as an audience member, I kind of feel like my time and attention was taken for granted a little too much. And here I am slagging it off on the internet.

It’s all very meta.

wtf?

200

Sooo… is this Cliffski finally having a nervous breakdown on the Internet because of the evil pirates and those who think his games are a tad dull?

Because… well… it looks like it.

Should we be starting a donation drive? For the inevitable and necessary rehabilitation?

I’m glad most indie developers have personality. They’re almost like real people!

More than 200 comments?

THIS IS SPEWERTAAAAAA!

That was pretty funny

Also bawwwsome

Wow, way to go. Feed the trolls more. This kind of response is a sweet ambrosia for those who have elicited it.

Who cares if it’s feeding the trolls? No one should avoid doing something they want to do just because it might provoke an internet-asshole. Feed the trolls ’til they pop, people.

Like most fish, trolls are opportunistic feeders. When an excess of food is offered, they will produce more waste and feces, partly due to incomplete digestion of protein. Overfed trolls can sometimes be recognized by feces trailing from their cloaca. Trolls need only be fed as much food as they can consume in one to two minutes, and no more than three times a day. Contrary to some common belief, extreme overfeeding will not increase the size of the troll but can actually be fatal, typically by bursting of the intestines.

Yeah, definitely keep on showing trolls how much of an effect their trolling has on you. Maybe instead of making them feel GOOD, it will make them feel bad and they’ll stop.

And see if you can blow it up to a seven minute whinefest. That’s great.

In context, what did this guy actually said?

210… Amazing.

Okay, this was pretty juvenile, repetitious and unfunny.

You come to expect where you get these kinds of comments and you should learn to filter them out rather than go nuts about them. If you get constructive critisism, you’ll notice it.

And if you’re annoyed by the fact you’re not getting any, go to something like the forums here, or another decent forum to specifically ask for feedback for your game. How hard can that be?

If people are anonymous over at some site with your game on it and a comments section, they’ll be jerks. The end.

“In my not-humble opinion, the video fails by being too long, too repetitive, and not witty or cutting enough.”

And that’s fine, but there are people who were entertained by it, so to say it’s not entertaining just because you didn’t find it entertaining is still a bald-faced lie.

Is this video a cry for help?

Now I just feel bad for wasting my time telling people these games are great when everyone clearly already knows that. “This gam is gr8, i posst on the intern3t”

Gosh-darnit Konjak, did you just say that this video has flaws and isn’t as good as people on the internet think it is!?

“And that’s fine, but there are people who were entertained by it, so to say it’s not entertaining just because you didn’t find it entertaining is still a bald-faced lie.”

Mmh, and saying that something is entertaining just because you find it entertaining is also a bald-faced lie.

With subjective media such as this, there is no objective truth. So one can only say what they thought of it by way of personal opinion. One would rationally think that that’s what everyone is doing.

To me, I wept inside as it looked like a developer having a nervous breakdown*, which I really don’t find very funny at all. Sorry.

* I’ve seen some come perilously close to that on forums, and sometimes I just wish they’d stay away from Internet communtiies, or just stick to the good ones, because they’re better off doing what makes them happy and making good games, rather than letting what some mendicant on the Internet thinks of them bothter them.